Tadpole215! Why SF?

[REESE]

Why do you decide to go SF? Do you also get to keep your Trident and wear it while in the Army!

[tadpole215]

Hell yeah man,

I wear my trident on my army uniform, and more importantly I wear it on the inside. There are Team Guys and Guy on the Team....big difference.

My roots are with the Teams, but it is time to grow with SF. Too many Team Guys sittin around while the SF man gets the ops. That sucks, but that is the fact of life in spec ops these days. My SF reserve unit has seen more real world than any platoon I know of, and I still keep in touch with my brothers. Ain't a lot happenin on the blue side. So green it is. The Teams are trying to change to fit the Army's mission, like my old Chief said, "soon we will be rangers with fins" Sad but true..................A CMDR SEAL friend of mine put it best when he said the Teams went to sh@t the day we got a SEAL admiral. He has a good perspective of the higher up problems. That's all above me. I guess changes are being made to justify somebodies paygrade.

There are many more reason why I got out, and chose to re-engage the SF community. A lot had to do with my SF friends. I see my SF friends getting a lot more real world work than my SEAL friends. I love being in the field and working, not hangin around stateside field-dayin platoon spaces and mil vans.

Both are good communities. I feel very lucky to have the chance to work in both.



Good question man....I like the ones like this.....



keep'em commin fellas


-clark

[frogwife]

..................A CMDR SEAL friend of mine put it best when he said the Teams went to sh@t the day we got a SEAL admiral.
My husband asks that you clarify that statement. Why do you think the Teams went to **** because we got a SEAL admiral?

You're right, the big green machine is taking over. But with the formation of SOCOM, that was bound to happen, given the sheer size of the Army SF vs. the Teams. Hate to see it, and it's an ongoing battle to get a piece of the pie. So wouldn't having more SEAL admirals or higher ups be what the Teams need to have at least a voice?

[REESE]

Thats Cool. I just figured you couldn't wear your Trident since it was from a different branch of serviec and you probably have other things to wear like Airborne wings and things like that. Do any of the SF guys say anything about you wearing it and do you think any of the SEALs have a problem with it since you are now in the Army and are still wearing your Trident.

[tadpole215]

Frogswife,

Like I said the admiral thing is way above my head, but what I think my friend was getting at was, when he was in the Teams as a young officer the highest ranking SEAL was a LT CMDR, so everything was real down to earth, all the policies and what not. What happens with high ranking officers is, they have been away from the troops so long they don't really know what is do-able or practicle. You got these highere ups making decisions without knowig the true capabilities of the men under them. When you had Junior Officers in charge, they are a lot closer to the men and reality. Also now that we got admirals, politics starts to filter down. The higher ranking the officer, the more politics and BS he has to deal with.
This is comming from his perspective........he did 5 platoons as an "O".....his last platoon he was a LT CMDR. I think an example for bad politics and higher up BS might be this Froce 21 crap. Again a new policy to perhaps justify a second star for somebody. If it ain't broken, don't fix it. The Teams sold their soul to the Army with SOCOM and JSOC.
The way I see it is spec ops is like a little league baseball team, And the Army is the Coach.
Now is Coach gonna let his own kid pitch or the neighbors kid. He's gonna put his boy in for all the glory. I really think this is why SF gets more work theses days. In fact, now that I am stationed with an SF unit, I know how they see the Teams and it isn't good. I know better, because I came from the Teams, but it doesn't matter what I know, it's wha tthe 4 star thinks he knows about the Teams. Yes, maybe now having an Admiral going to bat for the Teams might help, but I think SEAL Admirals are bowing down to Army policy, not really sticking up for the boys................higher ups are more concerned with their career paths, not taking care of the boys.

I saw this with my own chain of command at 5. I think that problem is military wide.

Again, I don't try to grasp all the goofy-ness of the higher up chain of command, I worried about my platoon, and my department. That was my job and I did it well.




As far as the working in the Army with SF and being a former SEAL, they love it. Most SEALs and SF have a great working relationship. There are some comments said sometimes. Maybe an SF dude had a scuffle one time wiht a Frog or something like that, but they see me for Clark and I work very hard for them, just like I did in the Teams. It is pretty cool to have the chance to work on both sides of the fence. I do think it is a shame that Team Guys are beeing jipped out of work. I do believe in the operational capabilities of the Teams. I don't think we should change our playbook to fit the Army's mission. Having 2 platoons conducting a DA is stupid. A squad or maybe 1 platoon does a hit like that. We are not supposed to work in large elements and we are starting to, in an attempt to pitch a sale to the Army, who now runs the show. Last time we ran in a big element, good men died in Panama.

Again, this really is way above my head. I just try to focus on being a good operator and getting the best experiance I can.



Thanks for the good questions, don't keep asking me to justify my statements. If your hausbands have questions or comments, let them make them.


Nothing good comes from having bored wives try to analyze what I say, when they don't really know what they are talking about in regards to specail operations.

Leave these boards open to the up and coming that want info, or the current spec ops guys that want to add to it. After all this is "NavySEALs.com" not NavySEAL.Wives.com


hugs and kisses


-clark

[frogwife]

Thanks for the good questions, don't keep asking me to justify my statements. If your hausbands have questions or comments, let them make them.

My husband did ask the question, not me. And I wasn't asking for justification. My husband wanted to know why you made the statement and i politely asked.


Nothing good comes from having bored wives try to analyze what I say, when they don't really know what they are talking about in regards to specail operations.
Again, I didn't analyze what you said. My husband did.

Leave these boards open to the up and coming that want info, or the current spec ops guys that want to add to it. After all this is "NavySEALs.com" not NavySEAL.Wives.com
My husband does give out information on this board, through me. He talks, I type. Very simple. And the information is current, as my husband was active duty before, during and after you were.

The rest of your post I'm not responding to yet because my husband isn't here, and if he has questions or comments he'll either log on under my username or have me type them. But they're coming from him, not me.

Sorry you have a problem with that.

[Silent_Tadpo]

Man, if this is true, it fu*kin sucks.

FrogWife, does your husband agree with Tadpole's assertions? How about the other SEALs on this board??

Tadpole, could this be an isolated case (perhaps just bad Team/platoon luck)? I have no clue what Team you were on or when you served, so this may be a moot point since NSW 21. Also, are you making these claims based on recents ops within the realm of the war on terror? It seems to me that the Teams have had a very active role in both afghanistan and iraq. Would you disagree? Were you siting the op in Panama when you were talking about the 2 platoon DA mission, or a more recent op? How do you think the new Marine SOCOM unit will come into play with this?

One last question; if you could turn the hands of time would you have opted to enlist in the Army and shoot for SF, rather than in the Navy? Do you mind me asking your age?

Thanks a lot man, and I'm sorry if that's a load of questions.

Adam

[KermittheFrog]

what happened to my post?????? this is ridiculous

[tadpole215]

Frog USN,


Apparently you understand all the higher up crap, good for you dude. I would never want to understand garbage like that. I received top pistol award going through BlackWater Shooting School for our CQB course. These are the kinds of things I understand and strive for perfection in. Having my platoon nominate me for sailor of the quarter is another real pulse check at where I wanted to be in the Teams. Great job and understanding Naval Special Warfare Paperwork and Froce 21. I would rather be in a platoon any day than OPSO.

If you ain't in a platoon, you are just a trident wearer!



I continue to place my self in a unit that works in the field and over seas.........................by the way, I will always be a Team Guy at heart. SF is the way to go if you want to operate for real. So far I haven't seen any paper tigers in the SF community.


-clark

[A62]

FrogUSN,

Just to clraify, I do not know very much about this reoranization or change in doctrine. What I do know is that many of the working SEALs are not happy with it. Many are leaving when their time is up because of it. BTW, lighten up, this is not the other "pond".
A62 out

[Wazz]

My SF reserve unit has seen more real world than any platoon I know of,


Tadpole
Having had some operatonal contact with all the U.S. Services, and forgien services, and some civil services I cannot agree with your ananlysis that your Reserve Unit has seen more real world than any platoon.

Could you enlighten me, and perhaps us, by telling me how a Reserve Unit has seen more world than an Active SEAL Platoon? This is not classified information as the media immediately names names, and only holds back by a few days on clandestine operations. Or, perhaps you are referring to campaigns that your Reserve Unit participated in since Dec 1941?

In one of your posts I belieive you gave an overall identification of your Reserve Unit. But could you be specific? Like the name that is on the nameplate or sign that hangs outside of your Reserve Building? The one civilians and military people see everday? And if you have hourly contact with a computer how much forward area oprations are you experiencing at the moment?

Thanks for your help on this.

[tadpole215]

Wazz,

The unit that I am with right now is 5/19th SFG(A). Most of the Bat has been over in the Middle East for just about a year now. As for me, I just got off Navy IRR. Signed on with 19th Group Special Forces on April 22, 2003. For now I am on active reserve status. I get my orders this week to PCS to Ft. Bragg to begin the Q-course. I do not have to do SFAS (selection) due to my Naval background with the Teams. After I finish my schooling at Bragg, I will go active in a Community that has a pulse. Say what you will, I respect the Teams for what they were, not what they have become. The only Team Guy that I keep in touch with that has seen anything, serves with the "Team" that we can't talk about. All of my blue water Frogmen Buddies are sitting on their thumbs. Yeah they are deployed, but stuck floating around somewhere. The news media picks up on SEAL missions, usually done by that "Team" that we can't talk about.
Same Team Neil Roberts was on when he died in Afg. That really seems to be the only Team that gets REAL work. To quote a good buddy from Team 1, "All we did was hand out friggin lolly pops to ethopians!" Wazz, I respect you, and I am sure that your era was different.
I am saddened that the Teams are going down the tubes. There are a lot of good dudes getting out. Do you know what was my first sign that the Teams were dying? When I got to my 1st platoon, out of 17 men, 1 had combat experience! That same platoon had 8 FNGs in it, including myself. 8 New Guys?! How can a platoon be good when it is so green. My OIC in that platoon was an FNG, An OIC as an FNG? Give me a break. Actually they don't want warriors anyomre in the Teams, they want tri-athlete poster boys. Little pretty boys. I have so much respect for older Frogmen. I met so many kick *** REAL Frogmen when I lived in Asia.
Some still active, some retired, but all from a generation of REAL Warriors. It ain't that way these days. Too PC,

Like I told my CO the day I left. I feel like I finally got to meet my super hero, but I learned that he is all f@#$ed up. I was in love with the Teams when I was a New Guy......................but like many other dudes from my generation, we were let down and moved on to other things. Each to his own. I wish I had been a Team Guy when the Teams were still the Teams.



Take care Wazz................................



-clark

[Wazz]

Tadpole
Nice, timely reply. I do thank you.

Yes, in my era it was different. But needs were needs and the Frog had to be treated different. You cannot squeeze extreme ego and maximum participation with cookie cutter regimentation. We had neither the budget, Command representation, or the equipment to produce the results we did.

I and a SEAL recently traded drawings of the Strand of my day and of his day. To me this was a must as when I attended my last West Coast Reunion I never did know one building from another. And so many and so big. In my day they had 10 Q-huts. And Platoon Officers and CO's gave leeway to the needs of men offering maximum effort on an everyday basis. And when my friend told me there was regimented bunks assigned with Friday field days and Inspections I wondered how much does this take away from the warrior and camaraderie that the SEAL Commanders really want.

And I attended a once in a lifetime, local, Pentagon type briefing of the presnet day structure of the NSW Command. I have since been advised that the numbers I heard were not fully true, but close. But the LCDR giving the lecture advised there was a Command Staff in Coronado of approx 1/3 of the overall assigned SEALs. I immediately thought, Dryfoot SEALs. And having some experience in people management I wondered how many Staff Personnel does it take to Manage a group of experienced, cream of the military crop personnel that will walk into hell with a vast amount of self discipline and Team Network. And as this LCDR addressed the 3 enlisted SEALs who were assisting him, he always addressed them as "Petty Officer Smith". Never by first name. Me, in my day, I was always addressed by my Officers by my nickname. A bridge of confidence.

[tadpole215]

Wazz,

I always thought to myself, if it ain't broken don't fix it. I am not sure why things are changing the way they are, but many good dudes are getting out. There is an old Vietnam Team 1 guy that lives near me, actually I work with his wife, that is how we met. Her license plate said "NVYSEAL" so I started asking around and that's how we met. Anyway, the next day Bill comes in to meet me, probably ro see if I am full of it. Sherry tells me that he is on his way to meet me here. Right on, so I wait. We spotted eachother right away. I could just tell he was a Frogman. He came right up to me and said you must be Clark, only a Frogman smiles like that! It was awesome!!! We hit it off right away. I picked his brain as much as I could.
The day after that Sherry brings in a few books that Bill is in. I flipped through the pictures and read the stories. The name of one of the books I read was called" Whatta ya mean I can't kill anybody?" by Rad Miller. Anyway, I got to read about some of the stuff that he did with Team 1 back in the day.

About a week after that Bill calls the office and tells me that there is a SEAL reunion at the "BuckSnort Lodge" in Pine Colorado. Holy crap! I didn't know there were that many SEALs here in Colorado. Stoked as hell I drove 3 hours to the BuckSnort to see what this was all about. Man, I was in heavan. These were all old school vietnam Frogmen!!!!!!
After a few pitchers of beers, which I insisted on buying, considering the company I was in, we decided to engrave a huge Trident on the wooden wall outside on the balcony behind the bar.

It took a while, but with a dremel tool and some paint, we made it happen. It came out great. We then decided to paint our names and class numbers all around the trident. (laughing)
I caught a bunch of crap when I painted "Clark 215" on the wall. They all started laughing and shouting, "What the hell is that? Your zip code? Phone number? maybe your Social? That sure ain't a Bud/s class number is it?" Too funny, shoot, they were all class 39, 42........numbers like that. I was the pup for sure. But I tell ya Wazz, I left there that night very sad. I didn't know why at first, then it hit me. I had saw in them that night what I hadn't seen my whole time in the Teams. I saw the spark that I had read abouut in so many books, but could never find in the modern day SEAL Teams. These guys were for real, and I told them that we still live off of their reputations. I have so much repsect for the older generation of Frogmen.


It must hurt to have known what the Teams were really like, and now too see them fade away into soemthing that they aren't. I caught a glimps of how it was, just for a second, I was in heaven.



-clark

[tadpole215]

[tadpole215]

sorry fellas,

I don't mean to miss quote, I think the name of the Rad Miller book is called: "Whatta Ya mean I can't kill'em" Something like that.............................


anyway

take care

[naoscaire]

OK OK OK ... i know i aint supposed to be posting here but this has to be said.

Wazz, Tad,
Comeing from a unit that still functions in what you guys call old ways I gotta say thanks for finally bringing up the differences :)

F***in' A bros :)
-Naos

[Wazz]

Nao
Please do not miscolor my descriptlion of "Old days" versus "Current days". For a man to go thru BUDS Training, then the post-BUDS Training, then perhaps several U.S. Operations, then go forward to a forgien country where someone wants to kill him, and he still moves forward, that man and that group has my salute. I cannot take anything from the present day SEAL who takes on the darkness or unknown with the stakes being his life. In my day the lack of funding and Command structure, and the immediate needs from so few Frogmen made the tolerance and expections much different.

Tadpole: If they are not on your list of Colorado Frogs/SEALs, here are a few more:

R.D. Russell

James T. Layne

Franklin Anderson

Jack B. Molden.

[naoscaire]

Friday field days and Inspections I wondered how much does this take away from the warrior and camaraderie that the SEAL Commanders really want.



And having some experience in people management I wondered how many Staff Personnel does it take to Manage a group of experienced, cream of the military crop personnel that will walk into hell with a vast amount of self discipline and Team Network



And as this LCDR addressed the 3 enlisted SEALs who were assisting him, he always addressed them as "Petty Officer Smith". Never by first name. Me, in my day, I was always addressed by my Officers by my nickname.


Wazz,
Didnt mean any offence... I am just glad to see that the stuff you outlined is noticed by more then me ....... And as it seems that Tadpole is seeing it also I am WAYYY happy that they are folks of the same age group as me who see it.


We had neither the budget, Command representation, or the equipment to produce the results we did.

This is what i meant when i said comeing from a unit that still works in the old ways .... this is how i was trained to work and as such relate better with folks that learned that way, Which here in the US means you old frogs .... No offence to Doug,BR or ETH of course *S*

[tadpole215]

Wazz,

Thanks for the names. I hope to hit the BuckSnort one more time before I head to Bragg. If I'm buyin, I think the old Frogs will find a way to show up for free beer.

I am with you about the current generation of Frogs. When I was in I always said, "we are stepping up to bat the same as any other generation, it ain't our fault they won't throw us a good pitch."


I do respect that...................................


Take care Wazz.


-clark

[outdoorguy]

2 Team guys fighting on the boards? Say it aint so. Anyways Tadpole, Good luck on your new journey with the Army. It would be one hell of an accomplishment to be able to say, Ive been a SEAL and I was in Special Forces. Thats really cool. Paperwork, its gonna happen anywhere you go. One other thing, even though he quit, he has earned the right to wear the trident, and he should be treated with respect as any other SEAL should be treated. I dont totally agree with tadpole on the quote "If you ain't in a platoon, you are just a trident wearer!" but thats his opinion and he can pretty much say whatever he wants since he has done his time. Anyways, im here to get information and not listen to this bickering. This is ASK A SEAL forum, not the bicker forum. As the moderators have said, take it to the general talk forum please.
Have a great day
DAN OUT...........

[Wazz]

2 Team guys fighting on the boards? Say it aint so


Outdoor
I too thought I saw a post, in fact 2 posts, of someone offering Tadpole some adverse comments. But the post has been deleted, I suspect by the posting party.

[outdoorguy]

lol, I must have missed those posts. We are all on the same team here. Army, Navy, AF, Marines, and CG. Each have their advantages and each may have different training, but BY GOD, we are all fighting for the same thing and we shouldnt forget it. Our Freedom! Lets all get along :):) God Bless, Dan Out..........

[tadpole215]

Amen to that bro. We all need to respect the posts. If we could all agree to start over. Everyone has a right to post. Even if you don't agree. I post in response to the e-mail I get. People wanna know, and I tell them based on my experiences. Other dudes can post based off of their experiences. This hollyier than thow attitude has to stop. Everyone wan't to pull rank, "F you I have been in you 100 years" blah blah. Dudes..........................
stop being so mean and let people have some opinions in here. I am trying to chill, but I get fired up too. We all need to bring it down a notch and start over.

-clark

[Silent_Tadpo]

This has been the most informative thread I've ever read. I'm sure I'm not the only wannabe with a lump in my chest right now.

Tadpole215, can you please answer some of the questions that I asked that haven't been answered? Especially the last couple.

Thanks man,

Adam

[Cil]

This has been the most informative thread I've ever read.

I have to second this. It is extremely informative reading these 'types' of threads. I generally do not post here since I am a "Civilian", but I read Ask A SEAL everyday. Thanks for the great work guys.

[Tagpole-2]

Tadpole , after reading this tread I began to wonder if I should still become a SEAL. If you had know about the stuff you stated earlyer would you have still become a SEAL?

[KermittheFrog]

"Tadpole , after reading this tread I began to wonder if I should still become a SEAL. If you had know about the stuff you stated earlyer would you have still become a SEAL?"

Oh this is now becoming a sight where people are told they shouldnt become SEALs? lol

[tadpole215]

Tagpole,


I never regret becomming a SEAL. I will discuss all my experiences that don't violate opsec, good and bad.
The Teams mean different things to different people. I had some rough times in the Teams, but there were more good ones than bad ones.


I have never told anyone to not join the Teams, I have warned about some of the dangers, especialy in reagrs to family life.

Each to his own.


To me being a SEAL was a passion. I had to do it. Even if I had known about some of the down sides, I would of done it, maybe a little diiferently. My goal in any military community will be to help the younget generation steer clear of the crap I saw and went through. Every realationship has ups and downs, this is true within spec ops.

I still believe in it or I wouldn't have joined SF.


Take care guys


-clark

[Cil]

Oh this is now becoming a sight where people are told they shouldnt become SEALs? lol

Bitter Moth******** IMO

[Tagpole-2]

Thanks for your post Tadpole.



Oh this is now becoming a sight where people are told they shouldnt become SEALs? lol


This site has nothing to do with MY choice to become a SEAL.

[rockinrollin]

I wear my trident on my army uniform


Just FYI all,
The Navy Special Warfare Insignia (Trident) is NOT authorized for wear on Army or Air Force (not completely sure about Marines, as I did not check with them) uniforms. The only Breast Insignia that is completely transferrable for every service is Basic Parachutist wings. Reason being...there must be a direct equivalent in the other service. Info is per Uniform Policy Head of each service, I can provide name/phone numbers if you'd like to verify for yourself.

[tadpole215]

Funny how NO ONE has told me to take it off!

[Chickenhawk]

I'd still wear mine, even if I transferred to the Army--regulations or not. It's probably the hardest single insignia to earn in the military. There is an Army doctor, an Army Nurse, several Army helicopter pilots, and a couple of guys who wound up in SF for one reason or another. All still wear their Tridents, last time I checked. They are all aware of the regulation as well.

On a darker note, there are several Army Reservists and National Guard types who wear Tridents, but never earned them. I'd burn my calories digging these losers up, and hammering them under UCMJ before I'd pick on the guys who earned the right to wear them.

[tadpole215]

Amen Chickenhawk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will never take it off, it means to much to me and what I did with the Teams, it is my link to my brothers. It is a symbol of my moment where I stood shoulder to shoulder with the best. No one can take that away from me.


Rock: you sound like a kind of service member that isn't in the field much. Who cares about uniform regs. Do you want to try to take my trident off? I dare you! We have our own rules down here in the trenches, it's called respect.

.............BTW, I did obtain written authority from HQDA to wear my Trident, just incase a guy like you came along and needed a piece of paper to tell him what to do.



Long Live the Brotherhood.................


-clark

[naoscaire]

The Navy Special Warfare Insignia (Trident) is NOT authorized for wear on Army or Air Force

At one time a certain green hat was not "authorized" either...... funny how things change.

How did it change, well do some research and you will see it had something to do with the sentiment of

Long Live the Brotherhood


I suspect Tadpole could expect to run into a number of pi$$ed off S.F'ers if he were to cower down and not wear it.

Tadpole, Keep up the fun bro

[HalfFish]

TadPole is there any way I could get a picture of you so i know who im reading. Thanks man.


By the Way. I really am Half Fish

[USSFPA]

The Navy Special Warfare Insignia (Trident) is NOT authorized for wear on Army or Air Force (not completely sure about Marines, as I did not check with them) uniforms. The only Breast Insignia that is completely transferrable for every service is Basic Parachutist wings. Reason being...there must be a direct equivalent in the other service. Info is per Uniform Policy Head of each service, I can provide name/phone numbers if you'd like to verify for yourself.

Not to butt in here, BUT, your information is not correct...
Army Regulation 670-1, wear and appearance of the Army Uniform...
CH 29-13 g (2)
g. In accordance with AR 600-8-22, personnel must obtain authority from HQDA before wearing badges on the uniform that were awarded by other U.S. Services, or by the Director of Civilian Marksmanship. The following rules apply when wearing badges from other U.S. Services.

(1) Military combat or special skill badges awarded by other U.S. Services that are similar to U.S. Army combat or special skill badges are worn on the Army uniform in the same manner as U.S. Army combat or special skill badges, only if no Army badges are authorized for wear in the same group. For example, a soldier who had no group 3 badges could wear aviation badges awarded by the U.S. Air Force (USAF) as group 3 badges (as Army Aviation and Aviator badges are worn). However, if the individual was authorized to wear an Army badge in group 3, the soldier would not be authorized to wear the group 3 badge from the USAF.

(2) Skill badges awarded by other U.S. Services that are not similar to Army skill badges are worn as group 4 badges.

Dude can wear his Trident with his letter...

I do find it strange though that he doesn't have to attend SFAS, way back when, even long tabbers who were coming to SWC to teach (and who did not go to SFAS because it did not yet exist) still had to attend the course.
Plus, the STAR exam is now given in SFAS...not in "Phase I"
Odd...nothing more..

Primum non Nocere


Primum non Nocere

[tadpole215]

I also found it odd that I don't have to do SFAS. Anyone entering the SEAL community must go through Bud/s 1 -1 day just like anyone else. I was and am prepared to complete any course required. My training NCO obtained a waiver from Ft. Bragg starting me with SUT. To be honest, i'm still not sure how all of this works, I'm learning as I go.

In fact, I get my orders monday or tuesday, then I'm outta here. I will try to keep up with you guys, but I will be busy making it happen, not talking about it.


Take care fellas.


-clark