Martial Arts training

[BrayWarshaw]

This is my first post, so I'm kinda curious to know what self defense techniques SEALs, or other Special Forces units typically train in? Also, is there much usage with Krav Maga, and/or Brazilian Jujitsu?

[Mac11]

Their Rifle/Smg/pistol/knife. I asked the same question in my first post too. Great minds think alike. The hand to hand training is pretty much anything that is practical from all the matial arts, but especially Kung- fu. I'm right, are'nt i guys?

[Mac679]

I believe someone asked this earlier. I don't know what SF trains for h2h with but the 75th Ranger Regiment currently trains in Brazillian Jiujutsu and has proven it's effectiveness in more than one bar fight ( I keep hearing a lot about broken elbows....). BJJ is also trickling down to the rest of the Army as well, with soldiers recieving some instruction in basic, in addition to standard combatives. Downsides to BJJ, it's preference to go to the ground is not something you want to do wearing LBV/LBE, weapon, and body armor... Many good things to learn though, although an older system of jiujutsu would be better suited to combat, Aikijiujutsu for instance.

[roula]

Is it true that some of the training is also based on Ninjitsu? Someone once told me that depending on a person's job its what they trained it: For example Policemen or Law Enforcement units usually like a hard style martial arts like Shotokan or Taekwondo, which can be taught to large groups in a short period of time. While members of the
international intelligence, Special Forces and espionage agencies seem to be attracted to the more esoteric arts like Ninjitsu. Is this true?
Thanks :)

[mark]

NOT TRUE. WE TRAIN IN WHATEVER WORKS AND IT IS NOT AFFILIATED WITH ANY SINGLE ART...THOUGH THERE HAVE BEEN ARTS BROUGHT IN LIKE SAN SOO KUNG FU, NINJITSY AND JEET KUN JONG. TRAINING HAS EVOLVED WITH OUR OWN TACTICS FOR USE WITH OUR WEAPONS AND ENVIRONEMTS

Mark (Bud/s 170, ST-3, SDVT-1, NRST-1)

[roula]

Thank you for the info.

[Wazz]

Mark, as always, is correct on this point of what ever works, use it. But the name of the game is to drop and kill your opponent in a matter of just a few seconds. Your opponent is not a stand alone enemy. And if you both are puffing up and making grunting noises, someone's combat buddies are nearing the fight. Do it in the time it takes to read this: Drop 'em, kill them.

[SpecSEALs]

Well actually SCARS is what most of the Special Forces are trained and is very highly Top Secret

[fish78]

Well actually SCARS is what most of the Special Forces are trained and is very highly Top Secret


You get your information where?
www.scars.com
Hardly secret...based in the Kung Fu San Soo mentioned by Mark...BTW it is a good program, but maybe not suited for the current needs of NSW.

Peterson's program was part of the CFC during the early 90's...the current guru is Duane Dieter.

[fish78]

Re: Duane Dieter
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This is copied from another forum:

In case others have questions about his Dieter's "chops", here's a government request for a contract with him for training. I know others have claimed to training SEALS, but had a hard time proving it.

CURRICULUM DEVELOPMENT FOR COMBAT FIGHTING COURSE SOL N00244-97-R-5208 DUE 082197
The Fleet and Industrial Supply Center intends to negotiate on a SOLE SOURCE basis with Dieter's Close Quarter Defense (CQD) Training Division, 6184 Ocean Gateway, Suite A, Trappe, MD 21673-2005. This procurement for Non-personal services is to provide the Naval Special Warfare Center (NSWC) with curriculum development for the Combat Fighting Course (CFC) to incorporate Close Quarters Defense (CQD) principles and techniques. The Contractor shall furnish the Government all management, supervision, personnel, transportation, equipment, materials, and supplies, except as specified herein as Government-furnished. The Contractor shall deliver services required for a curriculum outline, instructional materials , student guide, testing, and validation. For the initial instructor training, Contractor facilities and Government facilities will be used. Approximately one-half of the training willl be done at the Contractor's Trappe, MDfacility and the remainder of the training will be conducted at NSWC, San Diego, CA. The contract period of performance
is 02 September 1997 or date of award, whichever is later, through 16 December 1997. Dieter's Close Quarter Defense (CQD) Training Division is deemed the only responsible source capable of providing a military specific, standardized CQD training program that is currently in use by East Coast SEAL Commands. By utilizing the same CQD program, NSWC will be able to completely standardize this type of training throughout the SEAL community. This action will significantly improve interoperability and overall combat readiness of the CFC graduates. A Justification for Other than Full and Open Competition is on file.

[xyzseaman]

SCARS? Interesting. The D-Boys and the SEALs got the same technqiue for Martial Arts training. One of the SEALs told me a different name of their Martial Arts Technique.

[Valerie717]

This summer, I studied a form of karate called Shorin Ryu, coupled with self-defense techniques that utilize pressure points. I think learning the body's pressure points is an invaluable lesson--you can totally immobilize someone. Of course, I have never had to use this, but you never know. Especially important for women who are generally smaller than their male counterparts.

[ErmacTaro]

Another good above ground style, is Aikido. Very good to throw off an opponet, but the weaknesses lay in the part where you normally have to wait for your opponent to attack.

[shocker]

Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is the ONLY true ninjutsu art still left in the world, and it is far more effective than others, because you don't compete in it. therefore you dont have to worry about injuries. and you'll learn the most effective way to kill or injure a man.

10-4

[Doug]

Let's set this straight once and for all. There is not one specific "art" used in the teams. "SCARS" is not the official SEAL fighting concept. The principal is to use what works best in the situation you are in. Techniques and methods are adapted from all different arts and systems. As for those letters about "official training," the person was probably brought on to train some SEALs during work-ups or whatever, but it does not mean that person was the only one to ever train SEALs or has developed the ultimate fighting system and that the Teams will use nothing else. Use whatever works best in the situation you're in. I hope this answers everybody's question....

[sjr78]

I am not a SEAL...... yet. But Doug, mark, and Bruce Lee all agree. I train in Jeet Kune Do Concepts (Bruce Lee's style) and I have always been taught that taking different techniques from all types of styles, which work for you, is the best pratice. What works for one person may not work for others.. It's personal preference. I use stuff from Akido, Brazilian Jutjitsu, Dim Mak, Kun Tao, Kali, grappling, etc. Be open minded about things and learn from seeing and doing. That's just my 2 cents though... (what do i know....LOL).

[fish78]

Doug,
My information regarding SCARS being part of the CFC in the 90s was correct, just as my information regarding Dieter is correct cyrrently. Please see the letter regardig "sole contractor" status for Dieter above. I don't think anyone on this board has claimed any ultimate fighting sysyem exists. Personally, I think it is difficult to improve on the Fairnbairn, Applegate methods taught during WWII. You are correct that over the years many have trained or given seminars to the Teams or groups of men from the Teams. Times change and so do the needs of the Navy.

[EmbraceTheHate]

Personally, I think Click Ching Pow is the most effective means of dispatching an adversary.

[brotherlove2002]

Right on.. short and sweet.No kick or punch is faster than a speeding bullet.None that I've heard about anyway.

[warpig]

What about Paul Vunak. I believe he contributed a considerable amount to the teams, as did other Instructors. I personnally think the teams take the knowledge from everyone to make them complete. Tony Blauer, Sammy Franco, Geoff Thompson and Richard Dimitri are also genius' on combat.

Personnally I believe the traditional systems are not realistic for SF/SOC missions. Their main goal is the application of the different levels of Deadly Force. As far as the Ranger BJJ thing. I think it is a mistake, Go for an armbar in the street/field and you can get your head stomped in. I have trained in the arts for over 15 years and I am a grappling nut. I also think it (grappling) is essential to becoming a complete fighter. There are many factors in real combat as opposed to a challenge match! Even the UFC is a sport, albeit as real as you can get.

Boxing, Wrestling (any form), Methodical Evilness Physical Attributes= MeaN MF'er.

......... Repel the enemies assault, by fire and close combat.

Semper Fidelis

Jarhead93

[fish78]

The issue of effective H2H combat was SOLVED in WWII by Fairbairn, Sykes, Applegate and others. The question is, is there a different need,now? I personally know of two highly skilled and respected FAS(Fairbairn, Applegate, Sykes) advocates who were told by the Marine Corps that what they were teaching was: "Too violent". Document ation is "sort of" avaiable, that is ,I have their personal statements to the events of that day. So, it would seem that for whatever reason the Armed Forces have chosen a "kinder gentler" approach to H2H combat.

[Wetwash]

Marks reply on this thread was the best.. the Hand to gland taught when i went through training was simpl;y the art of dirty fighting ..Straight forward , no frills.. Moves taken from all forms of formal fighting...There was NOTHING gentle about it..

[fish78]

Wetwash,
Let me guess: Chin Jab, (heel of palm applied to the point of the chin) axehand to the throat, knee to the nuts, eye jab, and kick to head to finish? During your time ,I suspect that what has come to be known as the O'Neill Method was being taught along with "Lucky" McDaniel's "Quick Kill" for close quarter firearms applications. These closely resemble the FAS methods. Quick to learn, effective and reliable.

[childofgod]

I train in Tang Soo Do and dirty techniques is very common throughout. In reading, "Meeting God Behind Enemy Lines", Mr. Watkins speaks of training personally with Rickson Gracie on Mr. Gracie's own style of "Brazilian Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" and using it in the teams for hand to hand. Hope this answers your q on Jiu Jitsu.

[fish78]

Tang Soo Do? Sounds like a laxitive you drink for breakfast. :D
BJJ is a good grappling art, but why in the world would you ever want to grapple when you can deal with the problem through strikes (attemi). COG Check out the methods in "Get Tough" by Fairbairn and "Kill Or Get Killed" by Col. Rex Applegate...and then there is always FM 21-150.

[warpig]

these marines think they have all the answers? please

[Jarhead93]

Eye gouges and all that crap are great. Realistically there is more to combat than learning a few easy techniques.
This may work against the average schlub, but people who are fighters are different. I personally (my opinion) is that the people that train combat sport combined with down and dirty techniques have the advantage. It is simple logic, your body gets familiar to the gross motor skills. When you put a scientific approach to it , you come up with a realistic system.

I have known many a black belt to get their *** whooped. Why?, because they had total confidence in what some guy at a mall told them. There has also been this influx of get tough quick gurus on the market. This is total crap. To be a competent fighter, takes alot of real training.

Do the SEALS need to be black belts... no. They need a system to keep them alive in a combat situation. The I dea of a seal beating a dudes *** in a bar has alot to do with his physical attributes and a little H2H. The idea of him single handedly clearing bars is BS. Many of Bikers/Cons/Combat Atheletes will mop the floor with them on the street. Will SEALS outshoot them or show them up in combat..... Hell No! Most people that think SEALS or any Spec Ops are ninjas are guys who never had a real fight in their life.

Semper Fi

[fish78]

'93,
There is much truth to what you say. Let me present in the words of Carl Cestari (see August edition of "Black Belt") who most people, knowledgeable about the Fairbairn, Applegate, Sykes methods, agree is the single foremost authority on the method currently.
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NUTS & BOLTS

Fundamental "nuts & bolts" training for close combat should be directed at dealing with the extremes. That is a life and death struggle for survival, i.e. worst case scenario. Restraint, control, and use of force scenarios and methods are peripheral to this core training. In other words train to deal with these beliefs at the forefront: The enemy is quite willing and capable of killing you - there are multiple threats - they are armed - the assailant(s) are bigger, stronger than you and they CAN FIGHT! Can it get any worse that that? Now add this to the mix: You are physically/mentally exhausted - ill or injured - caught by absolute surprise - may have to protect others as well - no viable avenue of E&E.

So what do we HAVE to do? I think we would all agree that immediate and absolute "threat" elimination by the most extreme(hence most reliable) measures possible is really the only pragmatic answer. So now what?

Let's look to real world models for some possible answers. Three potential goals seem obvious:
1 - immediate cessation of life. Yes, killing the SOB's outright!
2 - unconscioussness. Knocking the SOB's out cold!
3 - Acute traumatic shock(least viable). Making it physically impossible for the SOB's to do ANYTHING. I would heartily suggest following up with 1 or 2. John Minnery had a good line,"If you killed him once and you're sure he's dead, kill him again and be dead sure". If anyone regards this as melodramtic or overly harsh, well consider what you would do if some animal were about to harm your wife, children, etc.

Considering the worst case, it seems only logical that we attack the most viable targets with ruthless, abject brutality.Priority #1 - the throat/neck region and the face/skull(brain box). Everything else is secondary. Why? These two areas assure the "biggest bang for the buck" so to speak. Reality sucks, so you may very well have only ONE CHANCE, you had better make it the best chance possible! This applies to unarmed as well as armed combat.

Attack the throat with the INTENTION of crushing it! No brainer.
Attack the anterior/lateral carotid triangle. One of TWO primary KO points. Kyusho/Dim Mak this AIN'T! Just "hammer" the ******* . Fast, hard and often is the key phrase!
Attack the cervical spine/C-1 - dens bone attachment.
Attack the head/brain case. Now here we get interesting. The goal in attacking the head should be, in my opinion, to cause ACUTE TRAUMATIC BRAIN INJURY. Other possible injuries are secondary. Attack with the intention of causing massive "coup contra coup" brain trauma, either through translational or rotational impact. Cause severe "kinking" of the brain stem, either by hyper flexion or extension. Forget the "death touch" stuff. THIS IS HOW people in the real world get F***ed up. Just research contact sports injuries, i.e. football, hockey, soccer, boxing and judo. Shocking the medulla and the the raephi ganglia are proven "shut downs" in the real world. Second proven KO is located at the jawline lateral to the chin at about the spot where the mental foramen is located(draw a vertical line down from corner of mouth). This is the classic boxing KO and is due in large part to rotational acceleration causing "brain bounce" or concussive referal shock and acute twisting of the cervical vertabrae.

No one is saying that this is "easy", BUT it is what you are going to HAVE to do. Sometimes you CAN attack directly, sometimes you can't. Uncle Murphy rules the roost here. So you DO whatever you have to DO, but get there! Spit in his eyes, slam a kick(with real intent and hopefully solid boots) into his shins, crush his nuts with a knee, grab the ******* and bite his nose off.......whatever! Shock him, rock him, and knock him out! Or just smile simperingly and waste the skel with total abject ruthlessness. Then go home and get a good nights sleep.

It ain't pretty, it ain't easy, it ain't fun, this is SERIOUS "guano"and your very life and well-being will be hanging in the balance. Either stand up, accept it and deal with it, or fold your hand, the choice is yours. The morgue is filled with compromise. Survival is it's OWN REWARD!

Carl Cestari
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In addition to WWII methods Carl holds black belts of various degrees in several traditional martial arts. Col. Rex Applegate said, after seeing Carl train, that "he is the best I have ever seen". Carl does not operate a commercial school or train people for money. He was the long time training partner of Bob Kasper ( a name many of you are probably familiar with) If not, see Gunghochuan.com

The reason I push this method is that it has been proven time and again in actual combat, from the streets of Shanghai to the battle fields of WWII, Korea, Vietnam and beyond...given the chance it will continue to save the lives of US Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines.

[Chickenhawk]

Downsides to BJJ, it's preference to go to the ground is not something you want to do wearing LBV/LBE, weapon, and body armor


Amen, Brother! Most SOF guys are pretty top-heavy during their actions on the objective. Last thing I want to do is end up on the ground with a guy on top of me--Guard position or no Guard position. The best hand-to-hand is no hand-to-hand if you can help it.

[Doug]

Many of Bikers/Cons/Combat Atheletes will mop the floor with them on the street.


Yeah, but we sure can beat the hell out of Marines....LMFAO....(now dont be the typical Marine and get all bent out of shape - Im just messin with ya *lol*)

[childofgod]

SEALs are rugged assed killers, that's all that matters. Who can beat who only matters in a real life situation, where even in that case trying to analyze the situation down to a simple "I can beat him" or "he can beat me" is dangerous. I would more likely focus on "How can I take the sob's f'in kneecaps out before he kills me".

Jarhead - Yeah there are a lot of phony martial arts programs out there now. Some straight up make me laugh. There is this one i saw on TV where they don't teach fighting, instead they focus on "how to take blows". Before I go on keep in mind there were at least 100 people attending this class. They stand there, make a hissing noise, and let one of the other "martial artists" kick them in the nuts (I KID YOU NOT!!!!!!). It was hilarious. The peak of the humor hit when this little guy had just finished taking a shot to the neck and put on some "KUNG FU MASTA" look of craze and let out a "wooooaaaaaa!" like in a kung fu comedy now days, I just busted up. Oh well, at least they're doing something to better themselves, too bad their common sense didn't give them a hand.
lol, I'm done.

[Wetwash]

LOL reminds me of when i went through the SD Sheriffs Academy.. THe biggest problem I had was toning things down.. In Law Enforcement the goal is to subdue on the follow through, i was trained to finish on the follow through...Scared the hell out of a few of my classmates.

[childofgod]

LOL reminds me of when i went through the SD Sheriffs Academy.. THe biggest problem I had was toning things down.. In Law Enforcement the goal is to subdue on the follow through, i was trained to finish on the follow through...Scared the hell out of a few of my classmates.


Everyone who knows them says the same thing, "SEALs are crazy". Wetwash, you're proof this is correct ;). God bless you!

[Jarhead93]

---QUOTED---

Many of Bikers/Cons/Combat Atheletes will mop the floor with them on the street.

---END QUOTE---


Yeah, but we sure can beat the hell out of Marines....LMFAO....(now dont be the typical Marine and get all bent out of shape - Im just messin with ya *lol*)

Yeah, Boot Cooks and Admin guys! LOL Cheers

[childofgod]

I thought a jarhead was a marine?

[A62]

I thought a jarhead was a marine?


You are correct.
A62 out

[O_DUDEMAN]

these marines think they have all the answers? please


LMFAO.................. Is that YOU John Wayne?.......Is this ME?

[O_DUDEMAN]

Yeah, but we sure can beat the hell out of Marines....LMFAO....(now dont be the typical Marine and get all bent out of shape -



Doug!, Wasn't there a post in the past about "Bar Fights" from diesel??..........

LMAOROF!!!!