Controversal Topics & Website

[rsctt83]

I want to throw this out there for consideration of all forum users. First point is that it costs money to host and maintain these forums. The forums exist because of the online store and the customers that purchase gear from the store. For all intents and purposes the forums serve many purposes, first and foremost they are there to assist people training for BUD/S and SOF careers and to serve the SOF community. It is our hope that when people make use of the forums they would consider purchasing gear from our store. In essence the forums are a vehicle to attract customers to our store, this revenue is what enables NSC to continue to operate.

It becomes very troublesome when the topics of the forums take a turn toward being very controversial and possibly offensive to some of our users/customers. This accomplishes the exact opposite of what NSC is trying to accomplish.

I am a few sandwiches short of a picnic when it comes to IT side, but ask that mod shift all of these controversial topics over to the paid subscription side. I have for the most part enjoyed these discussions while they stayed on point but others have complained and it has the caught the attention of ownership.

Please bear in mind that this site is here for the SOF community and it is not a site for intense political/philisophical debate. Ask yourselves how does your topic relate to the SOF community and potential operators. In general I would say that religous discussions particularly when they are intensely opinionated do not relate to the SOF community and would probably be best conducted elsewhere.

These are my views and thoughts on this topic, the reason that I am voicing these opinions is that I feel strongly that a change needs to occur and that we need to get back on course before this gets out of control.

[jumpingbum]

Scott,

I did try to send a private message or an email about this. I don't want to publish this publically.

However, God is being "banished" all over this country. People want to be politically correct. The problem is? He's still there.

Many, many people have prayed for the safety of our military in the past and are doing so in the present. Many many people are praying for those sailors, soldiers and airmen who have seen combat and are leaving the military that they will find peace in their civilian lives. I see miracles every single day because of prayer.

If you look at the fall of major civilizations over time? They all follow the same pattern: people started looking out for only their own interests and in doing so? They tried to banish God.

My point is this: if God is unwelcome in our country and, by what you have written, at NSC, then WHAT are we fighting for? Matthew 7:6.

[rsctt83]

jumpingbum

feel free to email me Rsctt83@aol.com

I turned off PM function

[Shar36]

I have moved the Discussion on Islam and Women in North American Society over to the Hooch.

For those members who did post and are not Supporting/Premium members, you will no longer be able to see or post there unless you wish to upgrade from a regular membership to a premium one.

Sorry ladies and gentlemen but I agree with Scott on this one. We need to keep the more controversial topics and discussions where they aren't viewable or post able to guests visiting the site and the non-premium members.

~Shar

[Illmaxic]

not sure exactly which thread this is pertaining to (maybe all of them) but i thought that is what general discussion was for...

[ma929tt]

Censorship is bad. I'm just saying that I learned a whole heck of a lot from the "Islam" thread and you really aren't doing anyone any good by censoring these things out. If people don't want to read them, then they simply don't have to click on the thread. I don't see how it could hurt this websites bottom line, this forum still has Navy SEALs here and that is what attracts people. Heck, I would argue that the majority of people are interested in controversy and that it attracts more people rather than repels them.

But then again, I don't know what goes on behind the curtains, I was just offering my two cents. Maybe you should conduct a poll on the forums about this topic or something?

Take care

[Shar36]

not sure exactly which thread this is pertaining to (maybe all of them) but i thought that is what general discussion was for...

Illi...these 2 threads...Discussion on Islam and Women in North American Society

When threads start or turn into a controversial subject, they really do belong in one of the Premium forums. That is why I moved them. This very subject was discussed late last fall.

~Shar

[Shar36]

Censorship is bad. I'm just saying that I learned a whole heck of a lot from the "Islam" thread and you really aren't doing anyone any good by censoring these things out. If people don't want to read them, then they simply don't have to click on the thread. I don't see how it could hurt this websites bottom line, this forum still has Navy SEALs here and that is what attracts people. Heck, I would argue that the majority of people are interested in controversy and that it attracts more people rather than repels them.

But then again, I don't know what goes on behind the curtains, I was just offering my two cents. Maybe you should conduct a poll on the forums about this topic or something?

Take care

The threads are still there. They haven't been deleted, only moved where they aren't viewable to the general public. It all comes down to bad press!

Think about it.

~Shar

[ma929tt]

I am just against "political correctness" and that is what I personally see this as. But I can see where you are coming from with the 'bad press' because I understand that some people will read what is said here, not agree with it, and then make the decision to no longer visit the forum.

You said the threads were just moved elsewhere, to a place only paid members can access or something? If so, how much does it cost to be a contributing member?

Thanks

Matt

[Shar36]

I am just against "political correctness" and that is what I personally see this as. But I can see where you are coming from with the 'bad press' because I understand that some people will read what is said here, not agree with it, and then make the decision to no longer visit the forum.

You said the threads were just moved elsewhere, to a place only paid members can access or something? If so, how much does it cost to be a contributing member?

Thanks

Matt

There are 3 subjects that people tend to be very passionate about; politics, religion and sex. In the past, threads on these subjects have turned into all out flame wars.

Yes, they certainly do generate traffic to the site and that's what we want to see. However when these very subjects and threads become hotly debated, it draws the wrong kind of traffic and attention. Make sense?

You can upgrade to a Premium membership for $29.95/year, at present. Whether or not it changes in the future is anybody's guess.

Here's a link to the Membership Benefits page:
http://www.navyseals.com/membership-benefits

~Shar

[grandpa273]

I agree with moving some post to a special forum topic. I am new to this site and the reason I came he is to follow my Grandson through BUD/s and other training. I have seen threads I was really interested in turn in to something unrelated and I do not care to read them while trying to find the info I want. By moving them to a special place I have the option to go and follow them when and if I want to. Some of the moved threads I have followed from time to time when I feel like it and it does not interfer with the search for what is going on with my Grandson. He is number 1 and the rest of the reading is extra.

Just my thought. I am not now or have I been in the Military so I am considered a outsider.

[rsctt83]

Sir you are not an outsider at all, you are a part of the SEAL/SOF community via your grandson and we are here to support you in anyway we can.

[Shar36]

Grandpa273 ~ I'll second what Scott said. You most definitely are not an outsider here and you shouldn't think of yourself that way.

~Shar

[Illmaxic]

welcome gramps and best of luck to your grandson!

[mark]

Shar and RScott have handled this perfectly. NavySEALs.com is not censured, but, like the SEALs, you have to earn the right to throw crap around. If you are invited into the premium forums (which all SEALs are) OR you decide to support us AND the SEAL community (we donate liberally to the NSW Foundation and Museum), with a measly $2.33 a month ($27.95 a year) then earn that right and can post whatever the heck you want (well, mostly) in the Hooch and Jungle.

Hooyah?
Mark

[Shar36]

Thanks Mark. I should have moved it sooner....my bad.

Hooyah!
~Shar

[dive doc]

HooYah and fully agreed!

[jumpingbum]

This country was founded by MEN who believed in a Christian God. It is written in our constitution and printed on our money. It is why, until fairly recently, this was the greatest country in the world. These men were military men: sailors and soldiers. More and more I am seeing people ashamed of God. It saddens me because I know that within my lifetime people in this country will come to regret throwing God out of this country.

The growth of Christianity, interestingly enough, has always been greatest in countries where Christians were most heavily persecuted. If you go to Africa you will find that Christians in various countries, Uganda for example, are the most passionate about what they believe. People came to this country so they could worship God in the manner they chose.

There was, recently, a forum where religion was discussed and no flame wars were started. In fact Scott commented about how polite we were being. However, good things these days don't last forever. Oh well.

[huyah_dan18]

I have been reading the posts on this and other threads with great interest and have learned alot. Let me thank the posters who gave thoughtful, reasoned responses.

Some posters have commented about censorship or political correctness. Well, there is a lack of perception regarding censorship/First Amendment issues here. Our U.S. Constitution forbids *the government* from telling us what we can say and what we can read. NSC is, as far as I can tell, operated by private company. Focus on the phrase PRIVATE COMPANY. The owners can determine who they want to post on this site and who they do not. If they want to use some kind of criteria such as "only people 6 feet tall" can post, that is their business and their right to do so. That means everyone here, including myself, is here is a guest. Just as you would become angry if someone came to your home and used language you did not approve of or made a mess, they can ask you to leave or not invite you back. Same thing at NSC or any other site.

As far as "political correctness" (PC) is concerned. On the face of it we admire people who tell it as it is without regard to other people. Maybe some people consider that brave or macho or honest or whatever. As a practical matter, let us suppose that a person did just that. Well, what happens if later on down the road that person needs a favor from someone who heard him/her "tell it as it is." Yes, right now what happens when a favor is asked. UH-HUH. Or, as the person who shot their mouth off would say, "UH-OH."

Also, as a theoretical means say we take the same person who again says what they want, when they want without regard to other's feelings or opinions? Would someone tell me the difference between that situation and the thinking process of a 5 year old child who says anything they want, when they want? I sure can't tell them apart.

With regard to religion.
My relationship with my Creator, I consider highly personal. Something going to my most inner core of my being. I do not feel comfortable discussing it in a public forum any more than I would discuss other, less sensitive, but still personal topics.

I came to this site initilly seeking motivation for a healthy lifestyle in terms of diet and exercise information. When I found out I could support our guys and get an appreciation for a pointo of view that I previously had not had contact with I was very happy. When I found out about the moderators who I have observed for several months now have been without exception very reasonable and professional in dealing with everyone on this site, I was ecstatic.

Have a safe holiday weekend.
Dan18

[jumpingbum]

This country was founded by MEN who believed in a Christian God. It is written in our constitution and printed on our money. It is why, until fairly recently, this was the greatest country in the world. These men were military men: sailors and soldiers. Now you are saying that the only way I can talk about God on this site is to pay money.

It's not about the money, Mark. I don't mind paying the money. It is about what I wrote above. More and more I am seeing people ashamed of God. It saddens me because I know that within my lifetime people in this country will come to regret throwing God out of this country.

The growth of Christianity, interestingly enough, has always been greatest in countries where Christians were most heavily persecuted. If you go to Africa you will find that Christians in various countries, Uganda for example, are the most passionate about what they believe. People came to this country so they could worship God in the manner they chose.

There was, recently, a forum where religion was discussed and no flame wars were started. In fact Scott commented about how polite we were being.

My guess? The enemy is working overtime. It's not my site, I don't own it, I don't make the decisions. I am one voice, but I think that my tenure at this site is over. I am sorry that you all are so afraid of God that you must banish him so there won't be "bad press." If I cannot publicly speak of what I believe, then I need to move on to a place where people are willing to listen. I'm sad about this, but I live in the middle of God's will. I can act no other way. I'm not going to quote the line about those ashamed of Jesus. I'm sure you all have read it on many many emails. The saddest part is? It's true.


Dan 18, :)

I agree with you. I appreciated your post. I needed to add: I'm not angry. It is Mark's right to do what he wants with his property. I'm just sad. I will be checking into the prayer group and prayer forum, but otherwise I'm out. I just wanted to make the point I made above.

Take care.
T.

[leahy_j]

Good post Dan.
Sure it's fun and interesting to to debate religion and politics, but it doesn't really fit the objectives of this site. This site is to help wannabes like me get the information we need to make it to/through BUD/S. It does a damn good job of that. People should see the site as an ENORMOUS privilige. Several experts, and hundreds of experienced people all in one place where I can ask ANY question I want? Can't beat it.

When I ask a question about a shoulder injury, I better not get an answer like "Pray and your shoulder will get better"..No, because if I got those answers this site would be useless to me. The answer would be more along the lines of "stretch and rest it" etc. THAT is useful to me.

The only personal issues on this site should be personal experience.

[lisalynne10]

Jumpingbum....I really hate to see you go. Yes, there are a couple/three things that I think are quite biased in the site, but again as you've, Mark and others have said, "this is his site" and he can do as he pleases, which is true and for the most part I'm good with that.

I've not posted on a few issues simply because I felt that a particular mod didn't agree with what I had to say. It wasn't out of line by any means, but I felt it didn't go with his feelings on the subject. So, I just choose not to post some things and for lack of better words "getting my hands slapped." Which I do believe has caused some members to come around now and again rather than regularly as they used to.

Hang out now and again, I really do hate to see you go. :(

ps: just thought of this...for very similar reasons I hardly EVER go to socnet anymore.

[rsctt83]

"This country was founded by MEN who believed in a Christian God"

Actually there were good hard working people living in this country for thousands of years before this country was founded by Europeans.

[Shar36]

Over the past week, there were a couple of threads that went completely off topic. I pulled those posts out and started new threads to keep the originals on topic. Those two threads were extremely controversial topics and I should have put them in either the Hooch or the Jungle forum. That one is on me for not doing so from the get go.

As I've already posted, they drew a lot of attention and traffic to the site. When it became troublesome to others and drew the attention of Mark, they were subsequently moved. It had nothing to do with censorship or banishing any topic from being discussed. If that were the case, those threads would have been deleted.

On Friday evening, I took a long drive to clear my head and hopefully come up with a solution to all of the hating and loving threads that appeared during the course of the week. When I got back online and saw this thread by Scott, I sent him an email telling him that I had thoughts along the same lines he posted to.

Personally, I'm not opposed to any subject being discussed. However, the "hotter topics" need to be kept out of view of the general public who visit the site as guests and the regular members.

I not only encourage but welcome the memberships feedback with regards to keeping the more controversial topics in the premium forums. Feel free to post your thoughts and comments here.

~Shar

[jumpingbum]

"This country was founded by MEN who believed in a Christian God"

Actually there were good hard working people living in this country for thousands of years before this country was founded by Europeans.


Actually? The native Americans who preceded the Europeans who had several nations (and still do) were preceded by another set of peoples. And, please note, I said "This country was founded by" meaning the United States of America and NOT "this landmass was settled by."

[leahy_j]

All they are saying is that NSC is not a place to spread religion or political standpoints!

[jumpingbum]

There are 3 subjects that people tend to be very passionate about; politics, religion and sex. In the past, threads on these subjects have turned into all out flame wars.

Yes, they certainly do generate traffic to the site and that's what we want to see. However when these very subjects and threads become hotly debated, it draws the wrong kind of traffic and attention. Make sense?

~Shar

It makes perfect sense.

[txaggiegirl1]

To give some context to this post, I recently had some health issues and was given a copy of “The Warrior Elite” by an individual who was helping me develop some mental toughness during my recovery. After reading the book, I wanted to learn more about the mental and physical elements in takes for an individual to become a SEAL and found myself on this site. I read lots and lots of posts and was struck by those of one individual, screen name IHateIslam. The ideas he expressed were genuine and born from a firsthand insight that I, as well as the general American population, have no access to, so I sent him an email with some additional questions.

Despite the rigors of his job, he responded with kindness to my health situation as well as honest answers to my questions about the mental/physical aptitudes he had which enabled him to become a SEAL. He also advised that was his purpose behind involving himself in the forum ie/ to help people like me understand the world he operates in; the fact that he answered at all speaks volumes about his character and motivation. Unfortunately, he also advised that he recently found that he had been banned from the site because of those same posts that made me contact him in the first place.

I normally stay off my soapbox, which as a prosecutor is pretty hard to do, but this time I felt compelled to put on the record that I am appalled that someone was silenced for speaking. I find it particularly ironic and disconcerting that an individual who puts his own safety in jeopardy on a daily basis to defend our Constitution is denied one of its fundamental and most precious principals.

While I now understand that you are a private website and the forum is essentially used to support your e-commerce venture, it is clear that you court Team members and actively seek their presence on your site to boost your credibility and bottom line. It is inappropriate for you to solicit and capitalize on those individuals yet ban them for expressing views which you deem bad for your business. This is not a matter of simply moving controversial topics to a subscription only forum, but, rather, the complete removal of an individual – a SEAL - for expressing his views.

I understand that, because of the private nature of your site, your action is not censorship per se, however, banning an active duty Team member who on a daily basis actually earns the title under which your website transacts business is unconscionable; you use the name and the respect that name carries, hence, the men that carry that title should not be banned for providing a current picture and their impressions of the world wherein they operate.

With that said, I also want it known that I appreciate and support the men and women in our armed services because I am acutely aware that it is their sacrifice that allows me the ability to speak freely my beliefs.

[ma929tt]

To give some context to this post, I recently had some health issues and was given a copy of “The Warrior Elite” by an individual who was helping me develop some mental toughness during my recovery. After reading the book, I wanted to learn more about the mental and physical elements in takes for an individual to become a SEAL and found myself on this site. I read lots and lots of posts and was struck by those of one individual, screen name IHateIslam. The ideas he expressed were genuine and born from a firsthand insight that I, as well as the general American population, have no access to, so I sent him an email with some additional questions.

Despite the rigors of his job, he responded with kindness to my health situation as well as honest answers to my questions about the mental/physical aptitudes he had which enabled him to become a SEAL. He also advised that was his purpose behind involving himself in the forum ie/ to help people like me understand the world he operates in; the fact that he answered at all speaks volumes about his character and motivation. Unfortunately, he also advised that he recently found that he had been banned from the site because of those same posts that made me contact him in the first place.

I normally stay off my soapbox, which as a prosecutor is pretty hard to do, but this time I felt compelled to put on the record that I am appalled that someone was silenced for speaking. I find it particularly ironic and disconcerting that an individual who puts his own safety in jeopardy on a daily basis to defend our Constitution is denied one of its fundamental and most precious principals.

While I now understand that you are a private website and the forum is essentially used to support your e-commerce venture, it is clear that you court Team members and actively seek their presence on your site to boost your credibility and bottom line. It is inappropriate for you to solicit and capitalize on those individuals yet ban them for expressing views which you deem bad for your business. This is not a matter of simply moving controversial topics to a subscription only forum, but, rather, the complete removal of an individual – a SEAL - for expressing his views.

I understand that, because of the private nature of your site, your action is not censorship per se, however, banning an active duty Team member who on a daily basis actually earns the title under which your website transacts business is unconscionable; you use the name and the respect that name carries, hence, the men that carry that title should not be banned for providing a current picture and their impressions of the world wherein they operate.

With that said, I also want it known that I appreciate and support the men and women in our armed services because I am acutely aware that it is their sacrifice that allows me the ability to speak freely my beliefs.


Well said. I couldn't agree with you more.

Matt

[lisalynne10]

Unfortunately, he also advised that he recently found that he had been banned from the site because of those same posts that made me contact him in the first place.


HOLY COW! I missed the part that he was banned. I thought it was "jumpingbum" who was banned. So, I sat here thinking after reading this that I recall Shar saying on another thread and I just don't get it...she said this (granted it's from a different thread).

"here it is straight up. All SEALs and BTDT's on this site are given leeway with their posts. Why? Because they have EARNED that right. They are allowed to throw more sand, sling more mud and post in a more colorful manner.

It has nothing to do with whether they are friends or not with any Moderator and/or Administrator.~Shar"

So, after seeing this exactly what was the reason for him being banned? Is he a SEAL? Did he do something really, really bad in the NSC world? Help me to understand!!!

[Shar36]

HOLY COW! I missed the part that he was banned. I thought it was "jumpingbum" who was banned. So, I sat here thinking after reading this that I recall Shar saying on another thread and I just don't get it...she said this (granted it's from a different thread).

"here it is straight up. All SEALs and BTDT's on this site are given leeway with their posts. Why? Because they have EARNED that right. They are allowed to throw more sand, sling more mud and post in a more colorful manner.

It has nothing to do with whether they are friends or not with any Moderator and/or Administrator.~Shar"

So, after seeing this exactly what was the reason for him being banned? Is he a SEAL? Did he do something really, really bad in the NSC world? Help me to understand!!!

Yes, that is what I posted to a member in another thread. It was directed to another member who felt that there was favoritism towards SEALs and BTDT's by Moderators and Administrators. If my memory serves me correctly, it was also addressed by OldSwabbie.

Both "jumpingbum" and "ihateislam" were banned. There are times when things are not always as they appear. Often things are not made public for very good reasons.

~Shar

[lisalynne10]

Yes, that is what I posted to a member in another thread. It was directed to another member who felt that there was favoritism towards SEALs and BTDT's by Moderators and Administrators. If my memory serves me correctly, it was also addressed by OldSwabbie.

Both "jumpingbum" and "ihateislam" were banned. There are times when things are not always as they appear. Often things are not made public for very good reasons.

~Shar

Thanks for the reply Shar. I realize that things are not always as they appear, hell, stuff on this site for the last couple of years has proved that!! Oldswabbie answered me in a pm last night so I'm good!

[Shar36]

I'm traveling this week so my online time is limited. I will get back to you when I have more time. Glad to see that Swabbie got back to you. I actually replied between stops yesterday but I noticed this morning that my post wasn't there....weird to say the least.

~Shar

[lisalynne10]

I'm traveling this week so my online time is limited. I will get back to you when I have more time. Glad to see that Swabbie got back to you. I actually replied between stops yesterday but I noticed this morning that my post wasn't there....weird to say the least.

~Shar

Stay safe in your travels!

[txaggiegirl]

I’m not trying to beat a dead horse here, and I've been around long enough to realize that things aren't always what they appear and that there are two sides to every story, but I am still perplexed as to how the punishment referenced in my earlier post fits the crime.


The intentions of the banned individual I spoke of were made crystal clear to me recently because of losses he suffered in his work, and I simply cannot understand how he ended up banished without reprieve. His insights and advice have given me pause to consider how the bigger world picture as he sees it from his very unique vantage point relates to my life - regardless of whether or not I agree, I've never seen a case where too much information is ever a bad thing. I've always believed the more information I have access to, the better informed I can be in the decisions and choices I make. I also believe that I, personally, have the ability and responsibility to process information for myself and do not need a third party to filter it for me.

I’ve had some log-in problems for quite a while, and, from what I can tell, the administration of this site seems to go out of their way to help ensure people can participate on the site which makes the situation even more confusing to me. I suppose that I am just mostly sorry that a real time and willing resource for potential SEALs and the SOF community has been silenced for reason(s) beyond my comprehension.

[ma929tt]

I am still in agreement with txaggiegirl. And the only reason I bring this topic back up is because I emailed IhateIslam, about something different entirely, and he is not even sure why he was banned. And, not that I have a right to know the details, I am still perplexed as to how a site dedicated to Navy SEALs, (a site that "punishes" anyone for disagreeing w/ the SEALs) would ban one for speaking his opinion (and this site allows all SEALs to say what they want as they paid the price to earn that right)? Not trying to bring up more controversy (well, that is the title of this thread though) or question anyone, but this just seems hypocritical to me.

Matt

[Shar36]

I am still in agreement with txaggiegirl. And the only reason I bring this topic back up is because I emailed IhateIslam, about something different entirely, and he is not even sure why he was banned. And, not that I have a right to know the details, I am still perplexed as to how a site dedicated to Navy SEALs, (a site that "punishes" anyone for disagreeing w/ the SEALs) would ban one for speaking his opinion (and this site allows all SEALs to say what they want as they paid the price to earn that right)? Not trying to bring up more controversy (well, that is the title of this thread though) or question anyone, but this just seems hypocritical to me.

Matt

Please enlighten me as to just who the member(s) are that have been "punished" for disagreeing with one of the SEALs on this site.

FTR, this site permits SEALs and BTDT's leeway in their posts. That does not mean that they are allowed free reign on the site.

~Shar

[Shar36]

There are a few here who have questioned the banning of a member by the name of "ihateislam". I will tell you what I do know as I was directly involved with his removal from NSC.

This individual first signed up with a different username. When I saw it, I immediately asked him to re-register with a new username. He did so without hesitating and informed me of his new username; which I saw no problem with considering that I've seen far worse. His second username offended at least 1 member that I am aware of. PM's were sent back and forth from the offended member to Administrators and Moderators. There may be others who were offended as well but I have not been made aware of that, if in fact that is the case.

Is he a SEAL? He was never run through the data base. I will say that when I asked for his full name and class number to vet him, he replied to my PM within seconds and gave me that information.

Several days later I received a private communication and was asked to terminate this individuals membership. Subsequently the termination was done shortly thereafter. When a member has their membership terminated, an email is sent. This member received an email from me informing him.

For those who are asking for a reason why; I honestly don't know. The decision was made and I didn't ask for the reasoning behind it. Why not you may be asking? I don't feel that it's my place to question the decision of the Owner of NavySEALs.com. If he wanted me to know, I have no doubt that he would have told me.

At this point, it doesn't really matter whether any member here agrees or disagarees, likes or dislikes the decision that was made. It's a done deal and it is what it is.

Shar

[random person]

Can you make this a sticky?

[Shar36]

I could do that. Care to elaborate as to why you think a sticky is needed?

~Shar