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christian gotcher
07-24-2008, 01:00 PM
I posted this on the Crossfit forum, but it was recommended that I post it here because a lot of people ask the question: where is the science? Why is Crossfit better for me or for anyone else wanting to be a SEAL?

The question seems to be where Glassman can make the claim that Crossfit is a system of "Evidence-Based Fitness." The challenge, then, is to establish what constitutes viable evidence and where Crossfit has it. Just because I love the format (and because it worked so well for Plato), I'm going to do this in a dialogue. (I'm looking back at this post and realizing it's pretty long- brace yourself)

Challenger: All Crossfit has to its name is testimonial and testimonials are not valid as scientific evidence.

CJG: What is it that makes testimonials invalid as scientific measurements? It is their subjectivity. I have been doing Half-Angies as a supplement to my other training (check my workout journal on this forum for specifics) and every day for this past week and a half, I have felt like I was working harder and harder to get through these exercises. However, my times were going down dramatically (from 8+ minutes to 6:06 two days ago). Were someone to ask me whether the "Half-Angie program" made me any stronger, without the times as data points, my answer would be "No- in fact, I feel weaker." This is what takes Crossfit members' experiences and advances them from the realm of testimonial to the realm of useful data- the times/rounds/weights involved in benchmarking exercises. Collect enough of these data points and you have observable, repeatable data that can be compared to the results of other programs.

Challenger: But where are the controls?

CJG: Controls are great, but the role of a scientist is to make research results viable to the average consumer. It is almost impossible to perfectly control all the components of improved fitness (diet, stretching, exercise, and recovery- which includes stress, meaning it includes everything) in any target group for the length of time necessary to make a legitimate statement about long-term fitness. This is true of many types of experiments involving complex organisms. How do we deal with the inability to control our environment? It's called statistics. Try it.

By increasing the sample size in the experiment. If you only have 2 people in a test of two different squat periodizations, the results are worthless because of the variables of life. One person might have a better diet or genetic predisposition. Get 200,000 randomly selected (very key) people in the same test and chance takes care of the variables. Does subject A on Program X have a poor diet? Odds are, there is a subject B on a great diet, and with that many data points, the numbers will even out. The popularity of Crossfit creates the vast sample size.

Challenger: But Crossfitters are self-selecting. They're not random.

CJG: True, but they're self-selecting out of the group that counts- people who want to be fit. If we wanted to do effects of interval training on mammals, we could bring dogs and cows into the experiment, too, but I wouldn't care about the results because it doesn't relate to me. Anyone who's interested in fitness and looking at various options can make use of Crossfit's data because it's selected out of other people in that same category- people looking for effective fitness.

Challenger: But... but... what about Program X? It allows for more rest between workouts, so it must be a better program than Crossfit.

CJG: This is where the evidence really kicks in (and here's where a grad student in kinesiology or physical sciences could make a great final project). Let's test that claim. Does Program X (A bodybuilding split program, Hybrid HIIT, SS, your company's fitness plan) have the same goals as Crossfit? If it does, and it can agree on the same test of performance as being valid, then get me two groups, each at recorded starting performance levels on the predetermined test, and set them on each program for a given period of time, measuring periodically... oh wait... that's exactly what Crossfit did with the Canadian military PT program, and Crossfit exercises provided a significantly better result on all but one element (pullups, and only lost marginally, if I remember correctly) with greater customer satisfaction and less injuries. I'd call that "Evidence-Based-Fitness"... wouldn't you?

Up to this point, I could have been taken as a Crossfit evangelical, so here is where some people might get touchy. In terms of evidence-based-fitness, Crossfit has two incredible, systemic problems in its ability to challenge other doctrines for effectiveness. 1) Glassman's purported enemy, the "Globogym" and that mindset, is a straw-man easily beaten that doesn't record its results for data points or use the same exercises. 2) Glassman does not (and, to his credit, probably can't) encourage blackbox experiments outside of the tested protocols to see if any of them are better than what we've tried. Has any ever blackboxed the South-Beach Diet on the Crossfit training protocol? How about Bally's, Jenny-Craig? Okay, that was sarcastic. But seriously, what about the "Warrior Diet?" Its users claim great increases in performance towards elite athletics: how does it blackbox in comparison to The Zone? What about the programming of Gym Jones, Mountain-Athlete, and others? Sure, they drew some of their ideas from Crossfit, but what if the tweaks in their programming that contrast with the Crossfit model, or the equipment they had that most Crossfitters don't (IE: sleds), make them more effective on average at crushing Crossfit's own tests?

This is the problem people have with the "science of Crossfit." The science is valid, and Crossfit can create phenomenal results. Could those results be more phenomenal with continuing experimentation? Perhaps. When people complain that Crossfit is like a cult, what they're really finding is that many of its members are resistant to change, making Crossfit its own mainstream. What happens when a trainer in this 'open-source' forum finds a modification of Crossfit that works better than the main-source, numbers and all? If Crossfit was truly "evidence-based," HQ would adapt to assimilate the new idea just like Glassman says it would. I think some people question the truth of that.

This is where we come in. It's our job as conscientious consumers (and fanatically devoted cultists) to keep an eye out for these better programs, conduct our own small-scale tests of their efficacy, and if they work, submit them and our numbers both to the public and Crossfit HQ to blackbox on a large-scale. Every affiliate who's curious about someone else's claim should have a program like this. If people were to do that instead of complaining about Crossfit's 'lack of science,' ordinary affiliates could bless us all with proof, once and for all, that the "who-knows-where-it-came-from-counter-body-1-day-on-2-days-off-man-muscle-split"
is the bull**** we all think it is.

I have a Half-Angie to do.

bigv123
07-24-2008, 01:12 PM
In the end it boils down to goals. I'm an old school guy and even I can accept that CrossFit has something to it. It can fill a need for a particular segment. But, it's not the right tool for everyone or every goal. For those that want to add muscle mass, it's not going to be as effective as high-intensity, compound movements at low-medium reps. For our discussion here at NSC, that's also not a priority. Total fitness and cardiovascular strength are what really matter here. And to that end, I feel that CrossFit is a very solid program. Use the right tool for the job.

Just my $0.02,
V

cantochaos
07-24-2008, 06:41 PM
^what he said. Goals are what matters. results are what matters. do what you need to do to get the results you want.

along with that goes with the personal responsibility one has when making the decisions about what one wants. if you want to look like a bodybuilder, then no, crossfit is not your path.

i don't think it's a good idea to outpoint an opposing party when they aren't even able to respond the way they would.

YOU have a responsibility to yourself to know what you want and learn the best way to get it. good for you and your half-angies, but HERE, on THIS FORUM, most people are looking not only for the physical gains, but the mental fortitude necessary to become a special forces operative. YOU won't get that by halving workouts as you see fit.

deadly nedly
07-26-2008, 02:08 AM
Meh.. I posted a reply... but I don't think this is the forum for this discussion.

CFHQ forums, gogo.

scskowron
07-29-2008, 05:18 PM
YOU have a responsibility to yourself to know what you want and learn the best way to get it. good for you and your half-angies, but HERE, on THIS FORUM, most people are looking not only for the physical gains, but the mental fortitude necessary to become a special forces operative. YOU won't get that by halving workouts as you see fit.



No need to call him out. He's not cutting down the Angie to make it easier, he's doing it to supplement his programming. Just like doing a max set of pushups every day isn't anything to marvel at, but it will definitely make you better at pushups.

infantry_scout
08-05-2008, 11:08 AM
I think that Crossfit alone is not sufficient for BUD/S preparation. First of all, there is very little running in Crossfit (compared to BUD/S) and there is no swimming at all in crossfit. So to rely solely on Crossfit to get ready for BUD/S will definelty get your physical endurance where you want it, but your running and swimming will suffer. I don't think there are really any workouts that exclusively give you everything you need to train for BUD/S, but if you take what you need from multiple programs, based on your goals and desires, then you've got something.

The best thing I've found is to make sure that no matter what happens, you are doing something to make yourself better. Even if you're extremely busy one day and only have 20 minutes available to workout, then spend 20 minutes working out. 20 minutes is better than 0 minutes.

leahy_j
08-05-2008, 12:53 PM
[QUOTE=infantry_scout;202139]I think that Crossfit alone is not sufficient for BUD/S preparation. First of all, there is very little running in Crossfit (compared to BUD/S) and there is no swimming at all in crossfit. So to rely solely on Crossfit to get ready for BUD/S will definelty get your physical endurance where you want it, but your running and swimming will suffer. I don't think there are really any workouts that exclusively give you everything you need to train for BUD/S, but if you take what you need from multiple programs, based on your goals and desires, then you've got something.
QUOTE]

I'm with scout here. I do whatever workout i feel like doing on any given day. Monday i might lift weights, combined with some light calisthenics and a good run. Then tuesday i might just do the WOD with a swim, and if i still feel squirrely i'll throw in 30 minutes on the stairmaster. My focus each day is to make sure i feel like i got a great workout, and always on a diffent part of the body than the previous day. Yesterday I did some weightlifting and calisthenics for the upperbody, combined with a run. Today i'll do some core weightlifting and a swim, then maybe some lowerbody calisthenics. No matter what though, i'll make sure i leave the gym with some part of my body feeling worn out, whether it be my legs, lungs, arms, stomache, or back. This method seems to work well for me, my PST's are in great shape and i feel like its giving me a lot of endurance.

newtonbcn
08-05-2008, 01:31 PM
The problem is with Crossfit is that anyone who does it is thinks that there is nothing better and then look down upon anything else. You have to base your training after what you are training for like ya'll have said. Crossfit is good, but often times it's not enough. A 10 min high intensity workout for me is not enough, so I'll supplement it into lifts or combine multiple workouts together, or create my own that can last much longer, reaching that point where you are training the mental aspect as well as physical. If you look at Gym Jones, they have broken off from crossfit and created there own type of training for athletes who require pushishment so they can go off and preform in their sport as best as possible knowing that they are well prepared.

Workouts like the Murph are perfect for whatever you are training for, especially military training because you have to continue on until you finish, and there is a clock to remind you how hard you are working or how much you are slacking, as well as being shamed within yourself if you quit. I have no been to BUD/S but if you ask a lot of the SEALs today, they never overly thought about it or over analyzed it, they just did it, and they prepared themselves how they best saw it. The best way for me to train to is to kick my *** the days I am going, and the days I have off, I take off. There's no rule saying you can't train 3-5 times a day. So why not take as many training aspects as you can and intelligently combine them being sure not train until injury but to train to know at the end of the day whatever the main goal is in your life you want to accomplish is, you know you can do it, not matter how difficult it becomes.

scskowron
08-05-2008, 03:34 PM
I think that Crossfit alone is not sufficient for BUD/S preparation. First of all, there is very little running in Crossfit (compared to BUD/S) and there is no swimming at all in crossfit. So to rely solely on Crossfit to get ready for BUD/S will definelty get your physical endurance where you want it, but your running and swimming will suffer. I don't think there are really any workouts that exclusively give you everything you need to train for BUD/S, but if you take what you need from multiple programs, based on your goals and desires, then you've got something.

The main site Crossfit workout does not have enough running/swimming, but it's not designed for BUD/S trainees either. What's wrong with adding more running and swimming to the workouts? It's still Crossfit. By the way, the WODs posted here daily have running or swimming every day.

The problem is with Crossfit is that anyone who does it is thinks that there is nothing better and then look down upon anything else. You have to base your training after what you are training for like ya'll have said. Crossfit is good, but often times it's not enough. A 10 min high intensity workout for me is not enough, so I'll supplement it into lifts or combine multiple workouts together, or create my own that can last much longer, reaching that point where you are training the mental aspect as well as physical. If you look at Gym Jones, they have broken off from crossfit and created there own type of training for athletes who require pushishment so they can go off and preform in their sport as best as possible knowing that they are well prepared.


You should really look at the thread I made here. http://www.navyseals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160042
Training mentally does not necessarily mean going longer. Try all those challenges and you'll see.