OCS vs enlistment

[OXMikeyD]

Hey guys, endulge me for a minute, I have a pretty thorough question and any help would be appreciated. I made up my mind a long time ago that I wanted to be a Navy SEAL. However, I wanted to go in as an officer so I resisted my aunt recruiting me during my lengthly college career (Rear Adm. McGann, former commander of Navy recruiting). I finished school, but with average grades. I tend to lose interest quickly unless I'm challenged, but when I am, I excel. I scored quite well on the ASVAB when I took in in high school. I have a questionable past, as we all should, but nothing too bad. I have numerous speeding tickets, my license has been suspended by DMV several times (not court-ordered, though), I have broken a few bones, got a concussion about 2 years ago, my credit isnt very good. My question is, even though I have my degree, is it likely to be a civilian recruit to OSC, and be given a slot at BUD/S? Or would I be better off enlisting? One way or another, I need to get to Coronado. If enlisting is what it takes, that's what I'll do. I'd rather not be a 27 year old doing jumping jacks in Great Lakes with crying girls and fat 17 year olds, but if it means being cold, wet and sandy on the beach in Coronado, I'll do it in a heartbeat. Thanks guys

[9007112]

Hey guys, endulge me for a minute, I have a pretty thorough question and any help would be appreciated. I made up my mind a long time ago that I wanted to be a Navy SEAL. However, I wanted to go in as an officer so I resisted my aunt recruiting me during my lengthly college career (Rear Adm. McGann, former commander of Navy recruiting). I finished school, but with average grades. I tend to lose interest quickly unless I'm challenged, but when I am, I excel. I scored quite well on the ASVAB when I took in in high school. I have a questionable past, as we all should, but nothing too bad. I have numerous speeding tickets, my license has been suspended by DMV several times (not court-ordered, though), I have broken a few bones, got a concussion about 2 years ago, my credit isnt very good. My question is, even though I have my degree, is it likely to be a civilian recruit to OSC, and be given a slot at BUD/S? Or would I be better off enlisting? One way or another, I need to get to Coronado. If enlisting is what it takes, that's what I'll do. I'd rather not be a 27 year old doing jumping jacks in Great Lakes with crying girls and fat 17 year olds, but if it means being cold, wet and sandy on the beach in Coronado, I'll do it in a heartbeat. Thanks guys

Officer slots are hard to get, give it a shot, I'd enlist and in school, especially in OCS, you don't have to be motivated or interested to finish.

I'd never finish my college courses with that attitude, you have to be focused and finish with good grades even, if it's not motivating or interesting, there is no perfect time to start doing something, but there's always right now.

That means you gotta do jumping jacks with crying girls and fat 17 year olds and be nice cause they might be your shipmates one day.

[scskowron]

I have this handy document saved here on my computer...I pasted the things I thought were relevant. If you can achieve these, then maybe you can go to BUD/S from OCS. Compare this to the SEAL Challenge contract.

----
From: Naval Special Warfare Officer Community Manager
To: Officers applying for commission in Naval Special Warfare

Subj: PRECEPT OF DESIRED ATTRIBUTES FOR OFFICERS CONSIDERING ASSIGNMENT TO BASIC UNDERWATER DEMOLITION SCHOOL

....
Traditionally, competitive officer applicants scores achieve:
i.9:00 minutes or better in the 1.5 mile Run (boots and long pants)
ii.9:00 minutes or better in the 500yd swim (side stroke or breaststroke)
iii.20 or more Pull ups
iv.100 or more Sit ups:
v.100 or more Push ups:

2.Academic Standards

a.Applicants must meet the minimum standards of their respective commissioning programs (graduation) for consideration to apply as an officer in NSW.
i.NSW seeks a diverse population of graduates representing the entire spectrum of academic class rank. However, proven superior academic performance in a challenging major has been a hallmark of success for SEAL officer selection.

b. SEALs are required to understand and function in a variety of countries and environments. SEAL Officers will be required to lead men on operations throughout the globe, in different countries working with people of diverse backgrounds. Skills and experience in various languages and cultures will enhance an applicant’s package. NSW requires language skills in all languages but particularly in DOD’s strategic investment languages particularly in:
1.Arabic
2.Persian/Farsi
3.Mandarin
4.Russian
5.Korean

3.Extra Circular Activities such as varsity sports:

a.Teamwork is central to all components of Naval Special Warfare both in operations and in training. Individuals must be able to lead, follow and work with peers, subordinates, and coalition forces on a daily basis. Participation and or leadership in varsity and club team sports has been a proven benchmark for success of SEAL candidates.

4.Preparation and Perseverance: Many applicants do not get selected the first board that they apply for but dedicated applicants will continue to apply until they achieve their goals. This is the “never quit” attitude is respected and cherished by NSW. Applicants also should seek as much information on the SEAL community as possible by talking with current or former SEALs, reading information online and in print/media on the Naval Special Warfare community. Educating and preparing for the great challenge and opportunity of NSW Service is the key for an individual applicant’s success.

[oldswabbie]

I have a questionable past, as we all should, but nothing too bad. I have numerous speeding tickets, my license has been suspended by DMV several times (not court-ordered, though), I have broken a few bones, got a concussion about 2 years ago, my credit isnt very good.

These comments were buried in the middle ~ but could be show stoppers depending on WHAT they are. How MANY speeding tickets? Anything over a Misdeamenor? NO violent crimes AT ALL right? Yes, Credit IS a big deal when the "Whole Person" is looked at in regards to Security Clearances. If you cant get a clearance - you aint going to be a SEAL, simple as that. You need to see what you have to clean up before you enlist.

The physical stuff you can probably get waivers for ~ Do NOT lie about any of it. And I agree with 9007112, those "crying girls" will be your shipmates. Do not belittle them before you even know who they are. I'll give you the statistics just for S&G's...

Of the individuals who joined the Navy to become SEALS... 48% DOR'd (Dropped on Request) OUT OF NAVY BOOT CAMP. The next big slice came out of bud/s where over 66% DOR'd.

So, I wouldn't be so high and mighty until you ring that bell once after you complete Hell Week.

OldSwabbie

[ambassador1]

OXMikeyD -- Here are some links pertaining to your question. Your question has been asked and answered several times. You will also find answers to your questions that Oldswabbie posted about. All you have to do is use the search feature, enter a topic, click on show posts then go.

http://www.navyseals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157926


http://www.navyseals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157605


http://www.navyseals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157419

ambassador1

[OXMikeyD]

Sorry, that crying girls thing was just a goof. No disrespect. Thank you for the info, sorry for duplicating a question. I was clearly under the wrong impression that a bachelors degree was the key to becoming a SEAL officer. The more I read, the more I think the enlisted guys have more fun anyway. My only hesitation was going to boot camp as a 27 year old. I just assumed everyone there is likely much younger, and in my head the PT and pretty much everything is fairly remidial in comparison to BUD/S.

Swabbie- why the high attrition rate for SEAL canidates DORing out of boot camp? In response to your question, maybe 10 speeding tickets (over the course of about 10 years, maybe 2 tickets in the past 5 years). No violent crime, no misdemeanors, just some misbehaving in college. No drugs, nothing serious.

My concern now becomes attaining a secret clearance. My credit score is around 620, last time I checked. That is the only hump that I foresee in getting a clearance. When does that process enter the training pipeline? Before BUD/S? During?

Thank you for the help and related threads. This site is an enourmous help as are all of you. Looks like I'll set my sights on enlisting and suck it up through boot camp and try not to get screwed too hard by the recuiters. Whatever it takes to get to BUD/S and ring that bell... once.

[mmaakuma]

All I can tell you that OCS billets, especially in extremely competitive billets like for NSW and aviation are very hard to get. Remember that while you have an undergrad degree, there are people applying with masters or even professional/doctorate degrees. For a person applying with a criminal record, there are ten without. If grades, physical fitness scores, and medical applicability are all equal, who would you pick to fill an opening? Someone with a record or someone without?

These are what people consider soft requirements. While to be qualified for a package, you only need to pass the PST, it's pretty much understood that due to the level of competition, you'll need to score heads and shoulders above everyone else; the minimum won't cut it. Same goes with tickets. One or two tickets won't matter that much. But when you start racking them up, your package will lose your competitiveness and appeal very quickly.

[oldswabbie]

The more I read, the more I think the enlisted guys have more fun anyway. My only hesitation was going to boot camp as a 27 year old. I just assumed everyone there is likely much younger, and in my head the PT and pretty much everything is fairly remidial in comparison to BUD/S.

Swabbie- why the high attrition rate for SEAL canidates DORing out of boot camp? In response to your question, maybe 10 speeding tickets (over the course of about 10 years, maybe 2 tickets in the past 5 years). No violent crime, no misdemeanors, just some misbehaving in college. No drugs, nothing serious.

My concern now becomes attaining a secret clearance. My credit score is around 620, last time I checked. That is the only hump that I foresee in getting a clearance. When does that process enter the training pipeline? Before BUD/S? During?

Thank you for the help and related threads. This site is an enourmous help as are all of you. Looks like I'll set my sights on enlisting and suck it up through boot camp and try not to get screwed too hard by the recuiters. Whatever it takes to get to BUD/S and ring that bell... once.

Enlisted guys DO have more fun because we're not held to as high a standard - but we are held to standards... Then again ~ we are Sailors, ask anybody in San Diego ;)

Why the high DOR Rate in Boot? Dont have a Clue, the statistics come from NSW itself and I'm still trying to figure that one out. I posted a thread and we put out all kinds of ideas why such a high drop out rate.

You definately need to clean up your credit and get it where you can obtain the clearance or everything else is a mute point. You want to be able for them to be able to get you a TS IF they need to with no trouble. Otherwise you will be cut out of operations and thats not a good thing.

When you start your enlistment process you have to start filling out your clearance papers. The recruiter can tell you when those would likely be submitted to DSS. Sooner the better to get the score up there higher though. Until then - Keep your nose clean, and tell them EVERYTHING. If you forget something, go back and tell them. This is the scary part...

Also, be careful if someone tells you to "fib" a little or this or that doesnt matter. Its CRITICAL to know that giving false information on a Security Document constitutes a violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 101, and Article 107 of the UCMJ. You could be Fined or Imprisoned for 5 years. Under the UCMJ the Max punishment includes reduction to the lowest enlisted pay grade (E1), forfeiture of ALL pay and allowances, confinement for 5 years and a dishonorable discharge.

This is why you do not lie or mislead them on the SF86 form!


OldSwabbie

[scskowron]

Just did some more research today ... chance of getting a SPECWAR billet pro-rec'd from civilian to OCS is about 15% on the average.

[iamfubar44861]

Hey, I don't want to start a new thread on this but it's a question I have yet to come across.
I've read that SEAL officers often do only one, two, or at most three deployments before they "ride a desk" for the rest of their employment. What exactly does this work consist of? Mission planning? Any thoughts, even speculative, are appreciated.

[oldswabbie]

Hey, I don't want to start a new thread on this but it's a question I have yet to come across.
I've read that SEAL officers often do only one, two, or at most three deployments before they "ride a desk" for the rest of their employment. What exactly does this work consist of? Mission planning? Any thoughts, even speculative, are appreciated.

Ask Frogman80 or Mark... They can tell you straight, both are SEALS, both are Officers :) Easier than guessing.

OldSwabbie

[qmc(sw)]

Hey guys, endulge me for a minute, I have a pretty thorough question and any help would be appreciated. I made up my mind a long time ago that I wanted to be a Navy SEAL. However, I wanted to go in as an officer so I resisted my aunt recruiting me during my lengthly college career (Rear Adm. McGann, former commander of Navy recruiting). I finished school, but with average grades. I tend to lose interest quickly unless I'm challenged, but when I am, I excel. I scored quite well on the ASVAB when I took in in high school. I have a questionable past, as we all should, but nothing too bad. I have numerous speeding tickets, my license has been suspended by DMV several times (not court-ordered, though), I have broken a few bones, got a concussion about 2 years ago, my credit isnt very good. My question is, even though I have my degree, is it likely to be a civilian recruit to OSC, and be given a slot at BUD/S? Or would I be better off enlisting? One way or another, I need to get to Coronado. If enlisting is what it takes, that's what I'll do. I'd rather not be a 27 year old doing jumping jacks in Great Lakes with crying girls and fat 17 year olds, but if it means being cold, wet and sandy on the beach in Coronado, I'll do it in a heartbeat. Thanks guys

What do you mean by "average grades"? If your GPA is not at least a 3.50, then an Officer Recruiter will probably not even talk to you. It doesn't matter what else you bring to the table, mediocre grades will kill the application every time.

The head injury will require a medical waiver, the bad credit could very well be a deal breaker. One thing to remember about being a Naval Offcier is that they are looking for leaders. If you can not obey simple traffic laws, have had your license suspended "several times", then your ability to be a leader can be called into question.

There is only 1 officer billet for the SEALs for every 30-40 enlisted billets. They only take the very best qualified and will turn anybody away that will require excessive paperwork.

Also, you comments about "crying girls and fat 17 years old" shows that you could very well have a misconception about the enlisted community. I've seen lots of young peole head to basic training in the last couple years, and when they leave they are motivated, within body fat standards and eager. Your comments are way off course and if you uttered them in my office while you were trying to be an officer, I would show you the door.

The enlisted community in the Navy is the very backbone of all we do, no matter what program is being addressed. And if you did happen to become a SEAL officer, most likely one of those "crying girls" will be taking care of your personal record, your medical record and will be processing your supply requests. Be careful who you offend, memories are lasting and paperwork can mysteriously disappear right when you need it most.

Chief Cacy

[MrParker]

If you enlist being older I would suggest that you show respect to the younger guys and don't pull the, "I'm 27, I don't need to listen to you". You may very well run across a guy like me that was 10 years younger (I'm 27 now too) and out rank you and always be in leadership positions with you in their charge...you can't lead until you can follow and once you disrespect someone you may NEVER get that respect back...just some friendly advice.

[ripmattaxelson5]

I'm in a similiar situation but it deals with only Officers and the two ways of getting there in my mind. I was wondering what the difference is between going to the Naval Academy and just going to a normal college, then going thru OCS. I have gotten letters from the USNA and their intrest in me, but i don't know if i'd want to go there, or just a normal college and become an Officer. Can somebody help me with the similarities and the differences? Thank you.