The College Degree Enlisted Path

[piano]

hello navyseals.com. i was hoping that some in the community would take some time out to answer my questions in depth...and hopefully clear up any misunderstandings i may have. i apologize in advance if anything i ask/do is considered offensive, and please be understanding in that this is my first post. i have been looking through the forums quite often as a guest, and just recently signed up as a member. i have been amazed at how much the community is willing to help individuals reach their dreams through informative posts, and i hope this would apply to me as well. :)

i am hoping to volunteer for the navy SEALs as an enlisted man. i will be graduating from an ivy league college this may with a liberal arts degree, and have started training in hopes to be in ready physical shape for BUD/S. i was first interested in joining the navy as an officer trying out for the SEALs, since nrotc peeps at my school were in an officer commissioning program and hyped up the benefits of being an officer than enlisted (taking advantage of degree, higher pay, better benefits and such). after looking through some of the posts in the forums, i realized that officers have only one shot at BUD/S.

i know that i've always wanted to serve my country, and i want to be a SEAL. i know the process is long and hard, and to tell you the truth, i have no idea of what to expect other than it being the most difficult thing i will attempt in life. that's why i need some help in preparation/training before i begin. at first i wanted to be a SEAL officer, but after reading how officer candidates only have one shot, i would like to go the enlisted route, and maybe apply for OCS after potentially receiving the Trident.

i was a varsity swimmer in high school, and swam competitively (albeit in a club team) in college. although my swim skills have deteriorated a lot, they are my strongest point -

now the questions..

1. how long can a student be in the Delayed Entry Program? i looked through the website to check out timelines and such, but this information was not available. the general gist i've been getting through the forums is that it's around 3-4 months, but i'm wondering if this is enough to put me back in good physical shape. is it beneficial to enter DEP while trying to improve PST scores? i read somewhere that you can DEP up to a year in the navy, so i was planning to use this time to work with a motivator and get awesome PST scores and mental shape (plus, i think you get like a monthly "salary" for being in DEP as well)

2. physical training - as of now, my PST scores are not as good. because i have flat feet, it's really difficult for me to run long distances. after reading luttrell's book, i was inspired in part to get some good running shoes, and i've been consistently running short distances (about 2-3 miles) every morning. i know this is a far cry from the daily 6 mile grueling minimum at BUD/S, but it's given me some hope that my runs can get better and better. i read through some of the forums that running on concrete is better than running on a treadmill...but is this true?

3. SEAL challenge contract - i've read through the forums that a lot of enlisted hopefuls say that they are trying out instead of the officer route because of the enlistment bonus (40,000 is no small number). now i'm not so sure about the numbers here so take this with a grain of sal: the thing is...officers at the lieutenant grade are paid twice as much as say, an enlisted second class petty officer, so the enlistment bonus kinda evens out after two years or so. i just wanted to say that the enlistment bonus should not be the sole reason for candidates to try out for the SEALs...thoughts?

4. diversity - as an asian american, i was wondering how much diversity there is in the SEAL community. are there many asian american operators in the teams as of now? i know this might sound stupid, but it is really helpful to know that there are other minority groups who are striving to become one of the best. i was particularly excited to see an asian in the BUD/S 234 class documentary, but he wasn't showcased in any of the videos :( i speak english, spanish, and korean fluently, with an elementary understanding of some japanese and german- i am hoping to enter language training at monterey...perhaps i'm thinking too far.

5. being dropped from BUD/S - i know that not everyone who aspires to be a SEAL, can be one. despite this notion, i'm training hard mentally and physically so that i'm not of this group - i was wondering for sailors who are dropped from BUD/S, are they sent to the enlisted jobs in the navy that no one wants? such as scrubbing the deck...(no offense to those sailors who tirelessly scrub decks..) my understanding is that in BUD/S, sailors who do NOT DOR, but are nonetheless dropped for misc. reasons (such as medical) have to serve 2 years in the fleet before having a second chance at BUD/S, if they are not rolled back to the next class. do sailors with a degree get preferential choosing on what they can do in the navy? for example, i'm interested in the navy's fleet diver program, as this will no doubt help with the SEAL training - will the navy allow me to train as a diver during this 2 year period with the fleet? to be honest, i'd like to pass BUD/S the first time, but stuff happens, and i would preferentially like to get rolled back and not sent to the fleet. of course, it's best if i don't have to go through this process of being dropped, but i just want someone's realistic perspective.

6. OCS - i know the navy's needs always comes first, but i was wondering what the chances of officer commission were for a pre-enlisted sailor with a college degree. i know that training/deployment might take up to 3-3.5 years...is it possible to apply for a commission during training? how successful are these candidates?

7. graduate education - i hope to follow through with my education later on with potentially med/business school. how supportive is the navy with allowing sailors to pursue a medical or a business degree with the navy? i was looking through navy hpsp program forums, and generally they loved doing GMOs - what in general is the timeline? does the navy support enlisted SEALs who want to enter medicine (since i have in mind to join the navy as a diving medical officer later on, with the hpsp scholarship - if they grant it to me) - so a candidate who during his enlistment period want to go to medical school, can apply for it? or the candidate must serve his period out before even applying? with regards to the SEAL medic 18D course, the extended training means the candidate will serve 2 more years correct? personally, i also think it sucks for the SEAL/SWCC/EOD/Diver guys who want to apply for astronaut training are rejected due to their rating, but what do i know...:/

8. timeline of SEAL track - the way i understood it, a sailor with a SEAL challenge contract out of DEP will head to:

boot camp for 12 weeks (with added PT sessions by SEAL motivators)
pre-BUD/S for 6 weeks? (increased emphasis on PT/introduction to things such as the O-course?) - is this the same thing as PTRR? or is PTRR another phase after pre-BUD/S?
indoc for 5 weeks
BUD/S for 6 months
jump school for 3 weeks
SQT for 6 months
SEAL operational training "work up" for 18 months
deployment for 6 months
stand down time for 2 months

i know that in the military, time is something that is determined by the higher ups, but i wanted to be prepared as much as i could (with regards to future education, having a family, and such) it might seem trivial to think about such things when being a SEAL is one's top priority, but i thought these might be some good things to think about...

woo...those were a lot of questions. thanks to the navyseals.com community! and if i did not ask a question properly/phrased a sentence well, please let me know so that in the future i can be more attentive to your concerns. hooah!

[swcc-wife]

I do not have answers to all of your questions, but this is what I do have:

1. The maximum length for DEP is in fact 1 year, however you will not receive any type of "salary" while in the program.

4. Make certain that your recruiter is aware of all of the languages you speak, and your fluency in each. That is definitely a good thing, and may come in handy.

5. There is no special treatment for having a degree. Although you may have a choice in rating if you do not complete BUD/S, it is unlikely. As you already know, the needs of the Navy come first.

6. Since you must have a degree prior to applying to OCS, having a degree isn't really a leg up. Being enlisted when you apply only means that you will be competing against other enlisted members, instead of civilians. If you have your CO's recommendation, you can apply whenever you want. Your chances of being selected? It all depends on who you are up against. The selection process is extremely tough since there are only a few slots, in total, available. You have to be the best of the best of the best to get selected, THEN you have to actually make it through OCS. It's tough, but not impossible.

7. It is difficult, but possible, to continue with a graduate degree in business. Medical school... not so much. Assuming you make it through SEAL training and become a SEAL, the rigors of performing this job to the standards necessary do not "mesh" with the rigors of med school. You won't have the time to do both. Think about having to complete an internship; not possible while on active duty.

That's all I have for you. I hope it helped :)

[oldswabbie]

SWCC-WIFE, for as much information as you come up you ought to get paid! Dang...you're a walking encyclopedia. Boy what an Asset to these guys!

:)

[swcc-wife]

Just wanted to add something I forgot to touch on-

3. One will have been in the Navy for 4 years before he/she is promoted to O-3 (Lieutenant). Then, he/she will probably be an O-3 for at least 5 or 6 years before they pick up O-4, and that's if they're lucky. (Did you know that most Command CO's are O-5's?) On the other hand, for one to be promoted to E-5, he/she will have most likely served in the Navy for 3 years. I say most likely because if there is any kind of accelerated advancement (i.e. enter as E-3 for college credits, or complete BUD/S as E-4), the enlisted progression to E-5 is a LOT faster. It is actually possible to make E-5 in as little as 18 months.

Now, I'm not saying there isn't a rather large pay difference between officers and enlisted, because there is. But when you consider the $40,000 EB and the $90,000 SRB that is available to enlisted members, well, although it shouldn't be the main reason for wanting to go SEAL, it surely is one hell of an incentive.

Ok, that's all :)

[swcc-wife]

SWCC-WIFE, for as much information as you come up you ought to get paid! Dang...you're a walking encyclopedia. Boy what an Asset to these guys!

:)

Nah, don't give me so much credit. I'm no encyclopedia- I just know where to find info, and who to call if necessary :)

[piano]

Just wanted to add something I forgot to touch on-

3. One will have been in the Navy for 4 years before he/she is promoted to O-3 (Lieutenant). Then, he/she will probably be an O-3 for at least 5 or 6 years before they pick up O-4, and that's if they're lucky. (Did you know that most Command CO's are O-5's?) On the other hand, for one to be promoted to E-5, he/she will have most likely served in the Navy for 3 years. I say most likely because if there is any kind of accelerated advancement (i.e. enter as E-3 for college credits, or complete BUD/S as E-4), the enlisted progression to E-5 is a LOT faster. It is actually possible to make E-5 in as little as 18 months.

Now, I'm not saying there isn't a rather large pay difference between officers and enlisted, because there is. But when you consider the $40,000 EB and the $90,000 SRB that is available to enlisted members, well, although it shouldn't be the main reason for wanting to go SEAL, it surely is one hell of an incentive.

Ok, that's all :)

thank you so much for all your informative posts! and thank you swcc-wife :)

do you have information on officer pay by any chance? again, money shouldn't be the sole reason for entering a career, but it is something to think about with other things, such as family and outside life

one thing i was hoping some people would input in on is the diversity issue...i read through this article a while ago (http://www.cdnn.info/industry/i020819/i020819.html) but it seems SOCOM in general is still predominantly white, not to say that that's bad or anything, but it would be, i guess, more representative of the american population in general if there were more diversity

i guess that means more minorities should try out and make it through BUD/S first :P

[mmaakuma]

Who cares about diversity? This isn't the PC world. There are minorities in the Teams, who cares about the exact percentage of each ethnic group? Couch's book says there were quite a few Koreans in the SQT class he was following.

For an Ivy League student, you seem to lack very basic researching skills. This took me a second to find on Google

http://www.militaryfactory.com/military_pay_scale.asp

This isn't including hazard pay, bonuses, BAH and all that.

[oldswabbie]

Petty Officer James Suh comes to mind, Fine Petty Officer, Fine SEAL, MIGHTY fine SEAL along with his Brothers.

As Americans we are a mixing pot of cultures. My heritage is that I come from Highlander Scot/American Indian.... but first and foremost I am AMERICAN.

Dont get to cerebral about it, its more of a "Heart" thing :)

[soup sandwich]

I just graduated from UT with an Economics degree and your story is very similar to mine. All the paths lead to Officer but after much training and understanding of the path that is BUD/S training I decided to enlist.

I ship in 10 days, so I can only give you the answers I feel I am best qualified for.

DEP for me, is not a training program, rather insight and a type of “holding pattern” before boot. The SEAL contract holders in my DEP program looked weak and unprepared. Get your head right and body right and then DEP in. I had three years to do this I think it can be achieved in 6-8 months with the right tools (one being this site).

DEP PST scores, besides the first one you take and last one before shipping out, don’t mean much. It’s to show progress not to get you in shape. The incentive for my DEP SEAL motivator was an elevated scores t-shirt, which was something to strive for while I was in for my mere 4 months. Here’s what he looked for:
Swim: under 9
Push, Sit, Pull: 75+, 75+, 15+
Run: under 10
Prepare for the test and it will get easier the more you are comfortable with it, as with anything in life. Don’t train specifically for the test though, push your swim and run distances and the more consecutive pull-ups the better (I call this the men-from-the-boys portion of the test)

You don’t get paid while in DEP either, you can get a bonus for a 93+ ASVAB score if your in DEP over 6 months though (true story).

Try not to run on concrete, work more on running in grass as this is the best simulation for sand. Most of us are nowhere near a beach so make due with surfaces that give.

I keep in contact with a few guys who are currently in SQTs, they are both Asian. This leads me to believe that they are not the first, nor are they the last. I can’t answer for the teams, but have to imagine they have many from all walks of life. Besides it’s not a color, race, or creed thing… it’s a belief in one’s self. There is much more to read on that in this site, so take advantage.

I too hold a degree, but only know it opens many doors if you were to DOR. Don’t think that far ahead. I was once told it’s good to have goals, not expectations. Worry about being an officer when that day comes, until then worry only about being an on-time and work-ready enlisted sailor. Be only concerned with your health and injuries. If you’re the sickly type who gets a cold 5 times a year, know that you must train through that. Stretch and understand your pains and that you must train through them as well. Take it one evolution at a time my friend.

I too will pursue my MBA, which will be on the Navy’s dime, BUT not in the near future. They endorse you taking advantage of the MGIB, as this is the best thing the military has to offer (on top of 100% tuition assistance). Again, that will be a time when your life has settled down and you can devote time to the classroom. Don’t forget you can use the MGIB 10 years after you get out of the Navy as well.

The time line you have is close, but come on man you take all the fun out of it by listing it. Just know its ok to plan and to have your stones in order, as I am this way too, but consider the fun in “just doing it.” Time lines change constantly and the only thing to expect from the military is to hurry up and wait. Personally, I feel the biggest prep you did (besides the physical and mental aspects to come) is the degree before enlisting. College is a complete mess, so you can conquer anything… just believe it.

Soup

[mmaakuma]

You don’t get paid while in DEP either, you can get a bonus for a 93+ ASVAB score if your in DEP over 6 months though (true story).
Soup
You get a bonus if you have an ASVAB score of over 93 and if you're in DEP over 6 months? Never heard of it, please explain and cite a document, as this pertains to all DEPers.

[swcc-wife]

You get a bonus if you have an ASVAB score of over 93 and if you're in DEP over 6 months? Never heard of it, please explain and cite a document, as this pertains to all DEPers.

This used to be in effect, but not anymore. It used to be that if your AFQT was 93 or greater and you were in DEP, you received $100 for ever month over 6 months in DEP. However, in the current message, the amount for that bonus is $0, and has been since Oct. 06.

[overcome.101]

This used to be in effect, but not anymore. It used to be that if your AFQT was 93 or greater and you were in DEP, you received $100 for ever month over 6 months in DEP. However, in the current message, the amount for that bonus is $0, and has been since Oct. 06.

Um, yeah, she is a walking encyclopedia...

[swcc-wife]

Um, yeah, she is a walking encyclopedia...

HAHAHA!!

AM NOT.

:D

[oldswabbie]

YEP That's U :D

[oldswabbie]

Try not to run on concrete, work more on running in grass as this is the best simulation for sand. Most of us are nowhere near a beach so make due with surfaces that give.

Soup

Do anything you can to find sand to train on/with, be creative. Just walking a few hundred yards in it will have your calves screaming if you arent in shape. To put it plain terms - Running in Beach sand is a mother. It puts more strain on many more muscles in different ways than just about any other medium.

I know this well, I was born on the Gulf coast of Florida, lived, swam, dove there all my life :)

I have an idea. What about construction supply companies? They will have sand pits (for sand that they sell) they might let you train in?



OldSwabbie

[austinnadz]

I can see it now, all across the country teenagers are walking up to foremen at construction sites and asking to run around on their sand, hahahha!

on a serious note, a lot of towns have sand pits and or construction quarrys. when they are off of the clock it might be wise to train there. lots of hills and lots of sand. great training.

[oldswabbie]

Yea, I thought about that after i hit "Submit" and a few smacks to the forehead later. But, if you are determined - you WILL find a way.

See! Gotcha thinking didnt I? :D

OldSwabbie

[piano]

Who cares about diversity? This isn't the PC world. There are minorities in the Teams, who cares about the exact percentage of each ethnic group? Couch's book says there were quite a few Koreans in the SQT class he was following.

For an Ivy League student, you seem to lack very basic researching skills. This took me a second to find on Google

http://www.militaryfactory.com/military_pay_scale.asp

This isn't including hazard pay, bonuses, BAH and all that.


mm..thank you for the link.

i only asked for officer pay info because the stuff i thought was true for enlisted pay was wrong, according to swcc-wife's post. so naturally, officer pay info would be wrong as well, i thought - to generalize someone's researching skills based on background alone is, i find, premature. :)

nonetheless, thanks!

[piano]

I just graduated from UT with an Economics degree and your story is very similar to mine. All the paths lead to Officer but after much training and understanding of the path that is BUD/S training I decided to enlist.

I ship in 10 days, so I can only give you the answers I feel I am best qualified for.

DEP for me, is not a training program, rather insight and a type of “holding pattern” before boot. The SEAL contract holders in my DEP program looked weak and unprepared. Get your head right and body right and then DEP in. I had three years to do this I think it can be achieved in 6-8 months with the right tools (one being this site).

DEP PST scores, besides the first one you take and last one before shipping out, don’t mean much. It’s to show progress not to get you in shape. The incentive for my DEP SEAL motivator was an elevated scores t-shirt, which was something to strive for while I was in for my mere 4 months. Here’s what he looked for:
Swim: under 9
Push, Sit, Pull: 75+, 75+, 15+
Run: under 10
Prepare for the test and it will get easier the more you are comfortable with it, as with anything in life. Don’t train specifically for the test though, push your swim and run distances and the more consecutive pull-ups the better (I call this the men-from-the-boys portion of the test)

You don’t get paid while in DEP either, you can get a bonus for a 93+ ASVAB score if your in DEP over 6 months though (true story).

Try not to run on concrete, work more on running in grass as this is the best simulation for sand. Most of us are nowhere near a beach so make due with surfaces that give.

I keep in contact with a few guys who are currently in SQTs, they are both Asian. This leads me to believe that they are not the first, nor are they the last. I can’t answer for the teams, but have to imagine they have many from all walks of life. Besides it’s not a color, race, or creed thing… it’s a belief in one’s self. There is much more to read on that in this site, so take advantage.

I too hold a degree, but only know it opens many doors if you were to DOR. Don’t think that far ahead. I was once told it’s good to have goals, not expectations. Worry about being an officer when that day comes, until then worry only about being an on-time and work-ready enlisted sailor. Be only concerned with your health and injuries. If you’re the sickly type who gets a cold 5 times a year, know that you must train through that. Stretch and understand your pains and that you must train through them as well. Take it one evolution at a time my friend.

I too will pursue my MBA, which will be on the Navy’s dime, BUT not in the near future. They endorse you taking advantage of the MGIB, as this is the best thing the military has to offer (on top of 100% tuition assistance). Again, that will be a time when your life has settled down and you can devote time to the classroom. Don’t forget you can use the MGIB 10 years after you get out of the Navy as well.

The time line you have is close, but come on man you take all the fun out of it by listing it. Just know its ok to plan and to have your stones in order, as I am this way too, but consider the fun in “just doing it.” Time lines change constantly and the only thing to expect from the military is to hurry up and wait. Personally, I feel the biggest prep you did (besides the physical and mental aspects to come) is the degree before enlisting. College is a complete mess, so you can conquer anything… just believe it.

Soup

wow..thanks for the info!

[piano]

This used to be in effect, but not anymore. It used to be that if your AFQT was 93 or greater and you were in DEP, you received $100 for ever month over 6 months in DEP. However, in the current message, the amount for that bonus is $0, and has been since Oct. 06.

ahh..this was what i thought was the "salary" aspect to the DEP. thanks for clearing it up!

[sandwich]

I'll try to answer what I can.

1) Up to 12 months, then they have to release you. Currently SEAL contract DEPpers wait 3-4 months to ship, less if their PST scores meet the elevated criteria (Which is 75+ 75+ 15+ and under 9, under 10). You can DEP in and then try to get in shape, but I would recommend training first so that you KNOW you are in shape. I think you can meet with a SEAL mentor whether you're DEPped in or not.

2). Treadmills over WAY more cushioning than concrete. If you have foot pain, definitely work on treadmills then move to the paths. Get orthotics for your feet, they should be allowed at BUD/S, and they may fix your feet in the meantime.

3) Officers that enter BUD/S are offered ONE chance to make it. There are also an extremely limited number of billets for officers at BUD/S, and the criteria are extremely competitive. If you're thinking about going to BUD/S as an officer, you probably should have been thinking about it before you entered college. That is probably a majority of the reason people choose the enlisted route vs. the OCS path.

4) If you watch the 234 videos, you see people from all backgrounds. If you check youtube, you'll see INSTRUCTORS of many different races. It takes all kinds. Also, speaking different languages will not get you anywhere at BUD/S, but it might get you somewhere after.

5) From what I understand, when you are dropped or DOR, you enter X-division, which is where you basically weed plants and do other menial chores, mostly supporting your former classmates, until the Navy figures out what to do with you. From what I've heard, some people end up in other divisions, such as rescue swimmers, SWCC and others, and some people end up back in the fleet. I don't know how much input YOU get in the decision, but you can expect that people with better credentials who don't DOR will probably get better treatment.

6) I think going to OCS after you've become an active duty SEAL is not impossible, but obviously up to your command. Many SEALs don't opt to go because becoming an officer sometimes removes you from active combat and puts you behind a desk. I think something like 70% of BUD/S trainees had prior degrees, FYI. You probably won't be able to apply for OCS during training. From what I understand, you generally serve one rotation on active duty at minimum before you actually can go to OCS. I don't know if that's true, but what I've read insinuates that.

7) There are several opportunities to further your education as a SEAL, but that will obviously take a back seat to active duty. I have heard of active duty SEALs going back to college to earn a degree. In fact, I think there's one that visits this forum occasionally. I don't know how he does it, but you may be able to find out from a SEAL mentor or something.

8) I think your timelines are pretty accurate, although I thought boot camp was 8 weeks and I know pre-BUD/S is something like 6-12 weeks, depending on how you do. I think the figure is something like 2.5-3years for the transformation from civilian to active duty SEAL. Keep in mind how much things change and all the other things that come into play.

Good luck, I hope this helps. Please note that I'm not a SEAL nor am I involved with the SO community, this is all from my own research trying to answer the same questions.

[mmaakuma]

I'll try to answer what I can.


8) I think your timelines are pretty accurate, although I thought boot camp was 8 weeks and I know pre-BUD/S is something like 6-12 weeks, depending on how you do. I think the figure is something like 2.5-3years for the transformation from civilian to active duty SEAL. Keep in mind how much things change and all the other things that come into play.

As to when you ship, it depends on a number of factors. First, it depends on your first ship date which largely depends on your rate. MEPS tries to match your SEAL contract as closely as possible keeping everything else constant.

I'm not sure that 70% have college degrees. I know there was a study done that SOF, Army SF in particular, usually had the most education. SEALs also have a high disproportionate number of degree holders. The exact percentage was mentioned in Couch's book. It might be 70% if you include AA degrees. On second thought, SEALs are a small-knit community with a higher average age than conventional units. Many of the chiefs have degrees so 70% might be pretty close to the actual number.

The pipeline doesn't take 2.5-3 years to get the trident granted you do not recycle and roll back. The Army 18D is about that long, and they have a year of medical training and language training.