Cold Conditioning ii

[manhammer]

I'm 6 foot, 135 pounds, and have pretty much no body fat. I live in San Diego, and my pool was 52 today. I remember watching the class 234 documentary, and the instructor said that 57 degrees was cold.

So I jumped in to see what it was like, and it really wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. I stayed in for a little bit, then my mom told me to get out cause she didn't want me to get sick. Surprisingly, when I got out, I felt better almost instantly. I wasn't cold at all. I guess the air was about 10 degrees warmer than the water, so maybe that's why. I didn't even shiver after I got out.

Anyways, I was wondering if I did this little exercise everyday, I would get more conditioned to the coldness, and learn how to deal with it.

You guys always say "you can't prepare for the cold at buds". I've never been to buds, but I do think that's pretty illogical. What about the guy that swam at the North Pole? He was in -1.8 celsius water for about 20 minutes. Don't tell me that he didn't do some cold conditioning before he jumped in. And you can bet your *** that he'd be "prepared for the cold at buds".

[king henry viii]

I will say that it is definitely a big confidence builder. I'm not trying to compare cold showers or swimming in a cold pool to the pacific ocean during BUD/S. But if you do take a cold shower or do a 50 degree pool swim, you come back the next day and say "well i did it yesterday so that damn sure means I can do it again today". So I would say a confidence builder.

[bud/s sucks]

No, it won't help you one damn bit. If anything, it will make you more miserable at BUD/S. When you first get there, cold water is nothing, I mean come on, you're in BUD/S! In HW, the cold gets the best of a lot of people. After HW, you start to like being warm sometimes. Second phase comes and you're always cold and in the water. Two months of being in the water isn't cool with some people. Third phase comes and you actually can go day to day without getting wet, and you QUICKLY block out all memories of ever being cold, wet, tired and sandy. Then, you get cold and wet, and it's the worst thing ever! It literally ruins your day if you have to get wet. Your whole attitude changes. And that's for a person with a positive attitude....

So, that being said, if I were you, I would stay out of the cold water as much as possible. Enjoy your warmth while you have it.

[manhammer]

No, it won't help you one damn bit.

How can you say that? I realize that buds is cold, but if you train in cold, you will get better at coping with it. You will build confidence in it like king henry viii said. And if you practice doing the combat stroke in it, then you'll do better at bud/s when they ask you to do it. And in the 234 documentary, he told the cameraman that the water was 62, then the cameraman asked if that was cold. The instructor said no, 57 is cold, 62 is swimmable.

And I do beleive that if you sit in 52 degree water everday for a long time, then it will definetley help.

[jonnygreen]

DUDE! Are you coming here for your questions to be answered or what!?! Your talking to someone who has been there and done that... If you feel sooo strongly about it working, then why ask anyone at all. It sounds to me, that you have already taken your position, and for some weird reason, are looking for reinsurance that it's right.

ps - Do the research yourself! Don't discredit people’s opinions that are credible and trying to help you.

[bud/s 184]

DUDE! Are you coming here for your questions to be answered or what!?! Your talking to someone who has been there and done that... If you feel sooo strongly about it working, then why ask anyone at all. It sounds to me, that you have already taken your position, and for some weird reason, are looking for reinsurance that it's right.

ps - Do the research yourself! Don't discredit people’s opinions that are credible and trying to help you.

More than likely he'll if he ever makes it to BUD/S which is HIGHLY unlikely.....he'll probably quit before he ever get's surf tortured!! Like sucks said.....and I agree.....cold training would be a waste of time!

[Illmaxic]

well, i don't know if cold water training helps or not, having never been to BUD/S. But its not going to hurt you. I live in northern california, and the pool I swim in has a broken water heater, so before I left for vacation, the pool had been 48-50 degrees. It's definately not fun, but I do enjoy swimming in the cold pool better the warm one. After I have been swimming around for a few minutes I don't even notice it. People don't believe me, but the worst part is if I get into the hot tub to join some ladies after and it stings more than the coldness... Cold water or hot water, doesn't really matter, just better be able to swim your a$$ off and do it for long periods of time.

[manhammer]

More than likely he'll if he ever makes it to BUD/S which is HIGHLY unlikely.....he'll probably quit before he ever get's surf tortured!!

Wow. I love how you're assuming so much when you don't even know me in real life. This is the ****ing internet. I could be a grandma with one leg, or I could already be a SEAL for all you know. You crack me up.

[scskowron]

Wow. I love how you're assuming so much when you don't even know me in real life. This is the ****ing internet. I could be a grandma with one leg, or I could already be a SEAL for all you know. You crack me up.

I wouldn't laugh at a SEAL. Especially if you're not. And at 6', 135, living with your mom, asking conditioning questions...something tells me you're not a SEAL. It's guys like you who are going to make us lose the valuable resource we have in team guys posting on this site.

-------------------------------


On a more serious note (talking to the guys who went through SQT particularly), I've heard again and again that cold conditioning for the water doesn't work. But how about cold conditioning outside of the water? I know at SQT you guys go through training in the arctic. Right now it's freezing in Massachusetts and still love to go outside running. Is this doing me any good physiologically? I'm gonna do it regardless, because I need to run, and it helps with my mental strength, but can your body get used to running through ice and snow (I always wear shorts by the way)?

[Illmaxic]

Wow. I love how you're assuming so much when you don't even know me in real life. This is the ****ing internet. I could be a grandma with one leg, or I could already be a SEAL for all you know. You crack me up.

lol, you crack me up son. 184, please disregard remarks made by this clown... this may the f*ckin internet, but this particular f*cker knows what he is talkin about WOmanhammer...

[montstar]

being cold or feeling cold is about blood thickness. when it gets hot the blood thins, when it gets cold it thickens. at least for people living where there are 2 or more seasons. the body of a person living in a warm climate will not as easily adapt to sudden cold. i would imagine persons from cold climates might find it not as cold as others might. but i think the idea is mind over matter.

[manhammer]

I wouldn't laugh at a SEAL. Especially if you're not. And at 6', 135, living with your mom, asking conditioning questions...something tells me you're not a SEAL.

So now you're assuming that's all true just because I said it? Do you always beleive everything you read on the internet. And I don't give a **** if 184 says he's a SEAL, if says that cold conditioning doesn't help, that doesn't make it the law. Don't bash me and tell me that I won't even make it to bud/s because I don't agree with you. Because once again, you don't even ****ing know me.

[9007112]

So now you're assuming that's all true just because I said it? Do you always beleive everything you read on the internet. And I don't give a **** if 184 says he's a SEAL, if says that cold conditioning doesn't help, that doesn't make it the law. Don't bash me and tell me that I won't even make it to bud/s because I don't agree with you. Because once again, you don't even ****ing know me.

Well if this was an Ad hominem argument, I'd understand, but 2 SEALS said cold water training is a waste of time(which I'll elaborate on in a second) and statistically, only a minority on this site will ever make it in the Navy, even fewer to BUD/S and even fewer will graduate, that's been proven throughout the years. And like you said, this is the fvcking internet, if you can't deal with 2 SEALS messing with you in the comfort of your chair, how are you gonna deal with a **** load of instructors f***king with your mind at 3 am in the morning with no sleep, sand in your a** crack, raw as hell after doing situps on the grinder, smelling like piss and still got 50 more hours of constant harassment and torture?

If anything, you should've bet him(bud/s 184) to buy you a case or two if you graduate.....Aggression is a sign of defense when someone is threatened by something.....having doubts?

On the cold water conditioning topic, I've been enjoying ice baths for a while now, my normal body temperature is always in the high average or one degree higher than normal, like that swimmer(can't remember name) who set some arctic swim records, they said it would take a normal person 25 mins of exercise to raise their temperature to our normal.

I've been taking cold showers every morning for the last 3 years and an ice bath(half full then add 30lbs of ice) every 2 weeks for 20 mins, never had early signs of hypothermia, but I cannot stand being in a hot tub anymore......

I doubt it would help like already mentioned, but I enjoy it, if you don't, don't do it, there's alot of things I heard about BUD/s that I know I'm not gonna enjoy, I'm not gonna do every single thing, just kick *** on the PST and same in BUD/s, whatever comes your way, just do it, don't give a f***, don't think about how bad it sucks, just do it!

Merry Christmas A**holes.:D

[Illmaxic]

So now you're assuming that's all true just because I said it? Do you always beleive everything you read on the internet. And I don't give a **** if 184 says he's a SEAL, if says that cold conditioning doesn't help, that doesn't make it the law. Don't bash me and tell me that I won't even make it to bud/s because I don't agree with you. Because once again, you don't even ****ing know me.

now we are assuming that's all true because you said it... well son, like you said, this is the internet, and that's all we can go on. I don't know why you would lie about being a scrawny 6 footer? and by the way, because of that first sentence in the above post, you have lost all credibility. good day son.

and 900, funny post, good though...

on a sidenote womanhammer, listen to the SEALs, they are who YOU want to be, they are not like you... a wannabe

[rsctt83]

Manhammer:

You need to tone it down a few notches. There are many people who frequent these forums that KNOW what they are talking about, people whose reality is your fantasy. Trust me one this one.

Luckily these people are kind enough to take the time and respond to serious questions about BUD/S and training for no other reason than to help. When you make comments about the internet and not understanding who you are you are, you really undermining the intent and spirit of this website. Why, because if you asked me a question about training, I would take the time and compose a response geared towards someone who was very serious, never ever thinking about the notion that you could be as you stated "a one legged grandmother" or someone else who was not 100% serious.

Getting to your question about being cold, I will draw from an extreme example. I participate in high altitude climbing and I can tell you that you never get used to being cold, no matter how many days I have spent been on mountain my body will react tomorrow to the cold just as if I had never been there before. In truth up high I believe that your body gets warn down and you may be more suceptible to the cold over time. Up high it's just freaken freezing and you shiver to the bone everyday.

If hanging out in the cold ocean gives you confidence that you can do it at BUD/S than by all means that's a big positive. I am a big believer in simulation/repitition training. What you are doing by getting wet/cold is working on your mental strength/toughness {which is great}. On the other hand I do not believe that this will train your your bodily systems to adapt to the cold.

Perhaps we will get lucky and dive doc will respond to your question

[bud/s sucks]

but 2 SEALS said cold water training is a waste of time

I'm no SEAL, thank you though :)

[king henry viii]

I'm no SEAL, thank you though :)

you're not a SEAL?! god damn man. I thought I read some things where you were talking about 3rd phase which lead me to believe that you were/are a SEAL. What happened?

[bud/s 184]

Okay...I agree anything you do that builds confidence and cannot hurt you in terms of BUD/S prep. I just don't think it is necessary to kick your own self in the nuts....as far as some of the elements and challenges you will face at and during BUD/S. I just believe that focusing on being extremely physically fit in terms of running, swimming and pt....is the key....why.....mainly because it worked for me....that is all I base my opinion on. I am sure other TEAM GUYS might tell you that they sit in a cold pond every morning before they joined the Navy....I just frankly did not....I focused on my physical fitness and that was it.....everything else took care of itself. The more fit a person was seemed to correlate with how motivated.....and how less discouraged they got! I think the beatdown you receive physically is the biggest challenge.....hell sitting in the cold water was quite frankly a relief for me.....and most of us.....we where able to relax....lay there.....and chill....not to mention reduce the swelling! So my advice....for what it is worth....would be to focus on getting in great shape.....and enjoy life.....it is short.....and believe you me.....I don't need to go sit outside in this winter weather.....and push my body towards hypothermia......to know that if life issued me that challenge.....that I would hand on and endure!! The cold is really......alot to do about nothing.....the monitor you always....and will not kill you.....so just see it as a nice polar breack.....and a 15-20 minute rehab.....in the polar surf!! Kinda like hot and cold treatments.....you dig?? Hope this helps!!

[bud/s 184]

Okay...I agree anything you do that builds confidence and cannot hurt you in terms of BUD/S prep. I just don't think it is necessary to kick your own self in the nuts....as far as some of the elements and challenges you will face at and during BUD/S. I just believe that focusing on being extremely physically fit in terms of running, swimming and pt....is the key....why.....mainly because it worked for me....that is all I base my opinion on. I am sure other TEAM GUYS might tell you that they sit in a cold pond every morning before they joined the Navy....I just frankly did not....I focused on my physical fitness and that was it.....everything else took care of itself. The more fit a person was seemed to correlate with how motivated.....and how less discouraged they got! I think the beatdown you receive physically is the biggest challenge.....hell sitting in the cold water was quite frankly a relief for me.....and most of us.....we where able to relax....lay there.....and chill....not to mention reduce the swelling! So my advice....for what it is worth....would be to focus on getting in great shape.....and enjoy life.....it is short.....and believe you me.....I don't need to go sit outside in this winter weather.....and push my body towards hypothermia......to know that if life issued me that challenge.....that I would hand on and endure!! The cold is really......alot to do about nothing.....the monitor you always....and will not kill you.....so just see it as a nice polar breack.....and a 15-20 minute rehab.....in the polar surf!! Kinda like hot and cold treatments.....you dig?? Hope this helps!!

Forgive my spelling....I am typing and watching Sunday night football.....just read slowly....should make sense!!

[bud/s sucks]

Okay...I agree anything you do that builds confidence and cannot hurt you in terms of BUD/S prep. I just don't think it is necessary to kick your own self in the nuts...

Exactamundo. In all reality, it's your own decision and whatever helps you, helps you. My personal advice is not to worry about "cold conditioning", because when you're cold, you're cold.

[dive doc]

MH,

Firstly, the answer to your question is both yes and no, but ill get to that in a minute. However theres one or two small points first.

This is the internet and yes this is a public forum. However, I offer you this piece of strong advice. I would suggest that you do a little less talking and a lot more listening. If you do actually intend on going to BUD/S then I would suggest a lot less talking and a hell of a lot more listening. I do not mean this is a bad way.

You are young. Do not talk about “I may be this” or “I could be that”, you are not.

“ So I jumped in to see what it was like, and it really wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. I stayed in for a little bit, then my mom told me to get out cause she didn't want me to get sick. “

Point taken? I am not here to argue.

Your questions and opinions are valued here like everyone elses. However, if you are going to comment, please make it constructive. If you say something, back it up with evidence, not just because you think it should/shouldn’t be so. This will stand to you, both here and in your professional career. If you want to be a professional, if you truly want to be a SEAL; then start acting now like the professional warrior that you aspire to be (this applies to all the trainees here).

There are guys here, both SEALs and guys have been to BUD/S that come and give their opinions, advice and suggestions to try and help guys that are working and training hard to go to BUD/S and become SEALs themselves. Their opinions and advice are so important and highly because they have the experience. Along with the other professionals that provide advice on a number of topics. That is not something you can buy, it is not something you can read, it is not something you can watch! That experience has been earned in the hardest possible manner and they are willing to share it. You have neither the experience nor the background to question that! I would again strongly suggest that you listen to them and take onboard what they say. You are in no position to question that experience. This is only friendly advice and something to take onboard. Like I said, your input is valued, but please do it in the appropriate manner and give respect to the guys that have earned it.

Back to your original question, yes it is possible to condition to the cold but not in the manner that you might think. This is a very interesting question and has been studied by research for years now in an effort to determine whether or not complete or partial human adaptation to cold could be achieved. A number of studies have been completed including some involving military personnel. Studies have shown that you can develop an adaptation to cold (eg. 15 C) involving a slowing of initial responses to cold. This involved both static and exercising subjects.

The time course of these reductions varied, however, between responses. Only the static group developed a reduced metabolic response to prolonged resting immersion. It is concluded that repeated resting exposure to cold was the more effective way of producing an adaptation. The performance of exercise during repeated exposure to cold prevented the development of an adaptive reduction in the metabolic response to cold during a subsequent resting immersion. In addition, many of the adaptations obtained during repeated resting exposure were overridden or masked during a subsequent exercising immersion.

Now even though this involved immersed subjects, much of the physiological adaptation is the same. This demonstrates that the “adaptive response” is completely negated by the associated/following vigorous exercise and at the very least its effects would be masked, which is exactly what would happen at BUD/S, especially during hellweek. However, these effects are compounded by other factors as well. There is also significant individual variation involved in this response.

You must remember that BUD/S subjects a trainee to one of the toughest military training regimes in the world. You are combining sleep deprivation, cold and continuous exhausting fatigue on a daily basis. As has been highlighted several times, excellent physical conditioning and fitness is by far your greatest tool in allowing you to cope with these conditions and also allow your body to recover faster when given the opportunity. Even if you were “accustomed” to the cold, lack of sleep and continuous fatigue will make your “adaptation” negligible.

This is one of the reasons that it is so often said that BUD/S is often 10% physical and 90% mental. It is designed to test your commitment and motivation to the core. I would agree that if you feel training or “practicing” in cold gives you that extra confidence or experience that you will be able to perform, that can only be a good thing. However, do not mistake in thinking that this will provide a “physiological” adaptation to what you will experience in BUD/S, because it wont.

“ And I do beleive that if you sit in 52 degree water everday for a long time, then it will definetley help. “

Again, back up statements like this with evidence of some description and not an unfounded opinion.

On a little interesting side note here. A physiologist in Northern Canada who is one of the world authorities in cold response and hypothermia did some great “hands-on” research on the hypothermia cold front. He had a specialist interest in the area of search and rescue and especially to see how long rescue services had to rescue a victim that had fallen through the ice in a frozen lake. He carried out several studies (himself) by getting in the water (almost 0 C) and remained in it. It takes several minutes to register almost ANY change in core body temperature and several more before signs of hypothermia appear (starting to shiver is not a sign of hypothermia). He remained in the water for >20 mins (no protective suit) and when he was removed his core body temperature had not dropped anywhere near critically low, however he did suffer a rebound hypothermic drop once he had been removed from the water and covered. You are FAR more likely to drown in this instance than you ever are to die from hypothermia.

As rsctt83 has already said, when it becomes bone chillingly cold, it is a case of mind over matter. It is the same in BUD/S. There is no warm shower when you leave the water, there is no change of clothes. It is a case of accepting and knowing that you are going to be wet and cold the majority of the time. Then, you will decide just how much you want to be there, just how much you want to stay; and just how much you want to be a SEAL. Train as hard as you can, be in excellent physical condition if and when you make it to BUD/S and these will be your best tools coupled with your desire and motivation to cope with the conditions while you are there.

All I can do is echo a lot of what the other guys have said here. If any of you have anything to add or correct me on, please do.

If you have any further questions on the cold conditioning issue, please ask and I will try and answer them.

It will be a strong case of mind over matter … If you don’t mind ; It wont matter!!!

DD

[rsctt83]

It doesn't get any better than this, simple words that capture the entire essence of how to succeed in any extreme endurance event. DD, this is classic quote!!!!

It will be a strong case of mind over matter … If you don’t mind ; It wont matter!!!

[scskowron]

Thanks for your insight DiveDoc!

[kamy]

It will be a strong case of mind over matter … If you don’t mind ; It wont matter!!!

I’m not a SEAL, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. But hopefully this will shed some light on the mentality in SEAL training.

A good friend of mine is a BUD/S graduate of a double-digit class from way back. During one of the timed runs, he was in rough shape and had difficulty. His numbers sucked and the instructor said he had to run it again or quit. Since quitting was out of the question, (his words) he ran it again. At the end of the run he asked what his numbers were and the instructor said, “You passed.” He knew his second run was worse than his first, but that didn’t matter to the instructor. What mattered was that he didn’t think twice about running it again; sucked it up, and did it.

The last day of Hell Week his group was told they were the worst class ever to go through BUD/S; none of them passed, and if they really wanted a shot at the Teams, they’d have to go through it again…or they had the option to leave. The instructors asked for a show of hands from those who would be leaving. The guys were openly weeping from disappointment, pain, frustration…etc. My friend looked at his raw hands and feet and thought; “Duct tape. I can use duct tape to wrap my hands and feet and go through it again.” No one raised their hands, and they were all secured.

If there’s a common denominator among Team guys, it’s inner-strength, will-power, and a pure, unadulterated, never-quit attitude. Good physical ability is a plus, but it’s mental fortitude that differentiates between the winners and quitters.

Literally, and figuratively, we can all apply the “duct tape” story to obstacles in our lives.

Good luck to you in any and all future endeavors,

~k…

[alobravo]

i for one have taken cold showers for almost 4 years now, based on my reading, to build brown adipose tissue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_adipose_tissue; according to a book called forever young by a nutritionist called john thomas, people with more brown adipose tissue burn more fat, have more energy, have stronger immune systems, and mainly for the sake of this forum's discussion feel less cold.

my experience is that i have been able to walk the streets in a tank top during new york city's winter months when the temperature has dropped down to about 20 degrees factoring the wind chill factor. @ that temperature i feel like the cold is just biting my skin, but i don't shiver. i may catch a goose bump attack once, but i could stretch my arms back and wont feel cold for hours.

i also work out for about an hour and half outdoors under any condition that new york city can throw on me: sleet, snow, hail. the weakest part of my body are my hands. i do wear gloves to do pullups and sprints otherwise, they will burn, and i will be unable to move them.

the other benefit is that i haven't gotten a bed ridden flu since i started the cold showers; of course i eat like a race horse from monday through friday - meat, fruits, and vegetables - but i think the cold showers definitely also contribute to my health.

i was in the navy, and i know a stronger immune system definitely helps you out because being in tight quarters with 90 people, viruses try to weaken you everyday. i used to wake up every morning during bootcamp with a sore throat that once developed into a high fever - i didn't go to the doctor because i didn't want to get held back - and my immune system wasn't as strong as it is now. maybe my times and workout performance would have been much better if i didn't have to exercise while i was sick.

and cold showers definitely help you negotiate outdoor temperatures a lot better. in my pre-cold shower times, i would wear a triple fat goose, and still feel cold during the new york city winter months. now i just throw on a tank top, a t-shirt and parka in weather above 32 degrees. i just add a leather jacket without any heavy lining in weather under that. but if i'm in the mood to just rough it out, i walk around in a tank top in weather above 20 degrees.

it's not as comfortable as having the layers i mentioned; but i could do it without shivering.

[rsctt83]

kamy:

Thank you very much for sharing that truely inspiring story! If you do not mind, as moderator I would like to put this into a file that I have and bring it back out to the forums from time to time when the occassion arises. Your story illustrates the essence of what is required mentally when we ask our bodies to perform well outside of our comfort zone, whatever that zone might be.

Nicely done!

[OddBall]

Alot of interesting opinions and stories here, no doubt people can gain an edges on temperature endurance,...for a short time.

Being asked to go outside for a few hours or the day to combat in the cold Northeast winter is one thing, so get creative all you want.

Being told to live outside in the Northeast winter for the season is totally another task. For that you need trainning !!

Your best friend,.....Fire !!
Your worst enemy,...Sweating !!

[king henry viii]

i for one have taken cold showers for almost 4 years now, based on my reading, to build brown adipose tissue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_adipose_tissue; according to a book called forever young by a nutritionist called john thomas, people with more brown adipose tissue burn more fat, have more energy, have stronger immune systems, and mainly for the sake of this forum's discussion feel less cold.

my experience is that i have been able to walk the streets in a tank top during new york city's winter months when the temperature has dropped down to about 20 degrees factoring the wind chill factor. @ that temperature i feel like the cold is just biting my skin, but i don't shiver. i may catch a goose bump attack once, but i could stretch my arms back and wont feel cold for hours.

i also work out for about an hour and half outdoors under any condition that new york city can throw on me: sleet, snow, hail. the weakest part of my body are my hands. i do wear gloves to do pullups and sprints otherwise, they will burn, and i will be unable to move them.

the other benefit is that i haven't gotten a bed ridden flu since i started the cold showers; of course i eat like a race horse from monday through friday - meat, fruits, and vegetables - but i think the cold showers definitely also contribute to my health.

i was in the navy, and i know a stronger immune system definitely helps you out because being in tight quarters with 90 people, viruses try to weaken you everyday. i used to wake up every morning during bootcamp with a sore throat that once developed into a high fever - i didn't go to the doctor because i didn't want to get held back - and my immune system wasn't as strong as it is now. maybe my times and workout performance would have been much better if i didn't have to exercise while i was sick.

and cold showers definitely help you negotiate outdoor temperatures a lot better. in my pre-cold shower times, i would wear a triple fat goose, and still feel cold during the new york city winter months. now i just throw on a tank top, a t-shirt and parka in weather above 32 degrees. i just add a leather jacket without any heavy lining in weather under that. but if i'm in the mood to just rough it out, i walk around in a tank top in weather above 20 degrees.

it's not as comfortable as having the layers i mentioned; but i could do it without shivering.

does body fat percentage factor in to this 'brown adipose tissue'?

[kamy]

kamy:
If you do not mind, as moderator I would like to put this into a file that I have and bring it back out to the forums from time to time when the occassion arises.

Absolutely. I hope it proves to be beneficial.

[rsctt83]

I would encourage everyone to really focus on what BUD/S 184 and Dive Doc said in their replies to the question of whether or not you can train your bodily systems to adapt to the cold you will experience at BUD/S. These guys have "been there, done that".

I am by no means an expert on the subject of cold/exposure but from what little I know I do not think it is possible to lessen the chances of frost bite as a function prior exposure/training to cold. Skin is after all just skin and the circulatory system will react accordingly to extreme tempertures by sending blood to the critical systems {away from non-critical systems like extremities}. This is an involuntary action that is deeply seated within the brain. I tend to think the eskimos got it right, they bundle up when it's cold outside.

This has been said before and it's true, if training yourself to endure cold gives you confidence than that in and of itself is good. I tend to look at training routines on a cost/benefit, whereas cost is time spent and benefit is how the training will help you prepare. As far as the cold training, it seems to me time {training} could be spent in a more productive manner.

[9007112]

i for one have taken cold showers for almost 4 years now, based on my reading, to build brown adipose tissue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_adipose_tissue; according to a book called forever young by a nutritionist called john thomas, people with more brown adipose tissue burn more fat, have more energy, have stronger immune systems, and mainly for the sake of this forum's discussion feel less cold.

my experience is that i have been able to walk the streets in a tank top during new york city's winter months when the temperature has dropped down to about 20 degrees factoring the wind chill factor. @ that temperature i feel like the cold is just biting my skin, but i don't shiver. i may catch a goose bump attack once, but i could stretch my arms back and wont feel cold for hours.

i also work out for about an hour and half outdoors under any condition that new york city can throw on me: sleet, snow, hail. the weakest part of my body are my hands. i do wear gloves to do pullups and sprints otherwise, they will burn, and i will be unable to move them.

the other benefit is that i haven't gotten a bed ridden flu since i started the cold showers; of course i eat like a race horse from monday through friday - meat, fruits, and vegetables - but i think the cold showers definitely also contribute to my health.

i was in the navy, and i know a stronger immune system definitely helps you out because being in tight quarters with 90 people, viruses try to weaken you everyday. i used to wake up every morning during bootcamp with a sore throat that once developed into a high fever - i didn't go to the doctor because i didn't want to get held back - and my immune system wasn't as strong as it is now. maybe my times and workout performance would have been much better if i didn't have to exercise while i was sick.

and cold showers definitely help you negotiate outdoor temperatures a lot better. in my pre-cold shower times, i would wear a triple fat goose, and still feel cold during the new york city winter months. now i just throw on a tank top, a t-shirt and parka in weather above 32 degrees. i just add a leather jacket without any heavy lining in weather under that. but if i'm in the mood to just rough it out, i walk around in a tank top in weather above 20 degrees.

it's not as comfortable as having the layers i mentioned; but i could do it without shivering.

Good post.

Never heard about cold showers contributing to more brown adipose tissue, but it's interesting, I do know that there was a theory that cold showers/baths activate some kind of protein and help with the immunity system, it feels good either way.

Paleolithic diets also help with the cold, by reducing the insulin spikes and eliminating many non-food items that harm the body(grains, beans, corn, dairy etc...) not to mention the heat producing qualities of meat.

My friend looked at his raw hands and feet and thought; “Duct tape. I can use duct tape to wrap my hands and feet and go through it again.”

Words to live by. Damn proud that people like him exist, one of the main reasons I'm going to BUD/S.

[SeaSpectre]

Manhammer----------FOUND ya!

This certainly isn't the place to be a boob.

[eyte115818]

I personally think that you should let him do what he wants and let him learn the hard way.

[dive doc]

Hey guys,

Heres just a few more inputs on the cold adaptation issue. Some real interesting points raised. That’s very interesting to hear of your adaptation alobravo, although I would also venture to say that your sturdy physical fitness and nutrition regime also have a large contribution to make to your thermoregulation as well. Also, I wonder how well that response would work when constantly wet and sleep deprived over extended periods of time akin to BUD/S. I am not provoking, merely wondering out loud. You raised a very interesting issue about the brown adipose tissue. I havnt seen that particular topic discussed in quite a while.

It also encouraged me to do a little more reading and I found the two following papers for anybody that is interested. They both lend a slightly different perspective and are quite interesting to read. I will include the link and abstracts below. The role of brown adipose tissue in the function of thermoregulation has been postulated and discussed for many years. It is also highly contentious and there are many good arguments both for and against. You can all draw your own conclusions.

Human Physiological Adaptations to the Arctic Climate

ABSTRACT: This review deals with thermal, metabolic and hormonal responses of various human populations to natural or experimental acclimation. Modern people react to cold with shivering, increased metabolism and cutaneous vasoconstriction (metabolic response). Native people, such as Australian aborigines, Eskimos, Arctic Indians and Lapps, who were regularly exposed to cold in their natural habitat, have
been reported to exhibit less pronounced shivering during experimental cold exposure and experience a greater fall in body temperature (hypometabolic and hypothermic type of adaptation). Australian aborigines and traditional Korean divers have been shown to have low body heat conductivity (insulative type of adaptation). Modern Caucasians intensively exposed to prolonged cold may also develop hypothermic
and insulative types of adaptation. Exposure to cold climate increases blood pressure, which may be a factor contributing to the greater mortality due to cardiovascular diseases and stroke observed in the winter. The secretion of the pineal hormone melatonin, which is believed to inhibit the secretion of a pituitary luteinizing hormone, is elevated during winter and decreased in summer. This leads to the higher conception rate observed during spring and summer.

http://pubs.aina.ucalgary.ca/arctic/Arctic44-2-139.pdf


Brown adipose tissue: from thermal physiology to bioenergetics

Abstract: Brown adipose tissue is an organ in mammals specialized for the generation of heat. The tissue plays an important role in thermoregulatory heat production (nonshivering thermogenesis), and in nutritional energetics (through the process of diet-induced thermogenesis). Much of the current interest in brown adipose tissue has been catalysed by the postulate (1970's) that a reduced capacity for thermogenesis underlies the development of obesity. Heat is generated in brown fat by a controlled uncoupling of oxidative phosphorylation, a process regulated by a tissue-specific mitochondrial uncoupling protein, Mr 32-33,000. The immunological identification of uncoupling protein is now used as a biochemical criterion for distinguishing brown fat from white adipose tissue. The gene coding for uncoupling protein has been cloned in several species, and a number of factors regulating the expression of the gene, as well as the amount and activity of the protein itself, have been documented. In addition to its direct role in heat production, brown adipose tissue has some notable general metabolic properties, such as in the conversion of thyroxine to triiodothyronine. An overview of the biology of brown adipose tissue is presented in this article, with an emphasis on some recent developments.

http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jbiosci/18/161-173.pdf


DD

[spencefoz]

my 2 cents..

as people said, The water is going to be cold every time... but my opinion is don't go to BUD/s never experiencing cold water... You jump in and have no clue what the hell to do and make you quit on the spot because you never have felt it, yes I know some people may just suck it up which is what I will do (Except I swim in cold water)

But as I said... i don't know if you can condition for it... but I believe its a good thing to get used to the feeling so you can easily cope mentally with it...

My 2 cents, Sorry if I am completely wrong
(I finally spelled completely right on the forums..)

[spencefoz]

I just read another post... Maybe it is possible to learn to endure cold and not shiver as adol(sorry i don't know your name) said...

But I think DEFIDENTALLY experience it so you don't freak out when you touch the water.

[OddBall]

The funny thing about cold water is,...at one temperature, you can swim and or train in it,....then another temperature that no matter who you are, you wont last long anyway,....and still another temperature when you will bounce right off, or can walk on it !!

[missathletic]

I've always HATED cold, moving from the south to the north, and 2 weeks ago I told myself "you know what, you're being a baby, it's not that cold" and all of a sudden it just didn't feel cold anymore.

Just suck it up. I think it's 95% mental. You tell yourself you're not cold, you make yourself believe it, then you're not cold. It's been 0 degrees here. It's not that bad. Simple as that.

[barrowcanyon]

There was some study regarding this at the ARCTICRESEARCHLAB here in Barrow,Ak back in the 1960's. Read 50MoreYearsBelowZero, a history of the NavalArcticResearchLab in Barrow, Ak. This is where the UnderwaterSoundLab field tested the first Digital sonar. It was shown that there is indeed a physiological difference between arctic/temperate climate populations of the same species.

[soulburst]

From what I understand it's not the cold that get you. It's the in and out.
If you saw the ngc special with Stew smith they could not lower his body temp.He sat in ice filled tank for any hour and he still maintained @98.6
so there must be something to training for this type of environment.Maybe you could ask him if he did any special training or if it is his natural ability.

[zachalex]

I wouldn't laugh at a SEAL. Especially if you're not. And at 6', 135, living with your mom, asking conditioning questions...something tells me you're not a SEAL. It's guys like you who are going to make us lose the valuable resource we have in team guys posting on this site.

-------------------------------


On a more serious note (talking to the guys who went through SQT particularly), I've heard again and again that cold conditioning for the water doesn't work. But how about cold conditioning outside of the water? I know at SQT you guys go through training in the arctic. Right now it's freezing in Massachusetts and still love to go outside running. Is this doing me any good physiologically? I'm gonna do it regardless, because I need to run, and it helps with my mental strength, but can your body get used to running through ice and snow (I always wear shorts by the way)?

i dont really know if it works for cold bt i live in phoenix az and run in the middle of summer some times 120 degrese, i know if some kid from chicago came here he couldnt run in the middle of summer. so your body CAN adapt.

[king henry viii]

bro this thread is over a month old. let it go.

[eliteseal1]

okay, just to clear up any confusion, since I haven't read any solid answers here, Cold training will not prepare you for anything at BUD/S. I dont disagree with jumping in once or twice just to see how comfortable you are in certain temperatures, but its definately not reccommended for training purposes, especially since it doesnt really do anything like build tolerance. No offense to the guy who wrote this Question but you were probably just excited and pumped up on adrenaline thats why that water didn't seem so cold. It's like taking a shower in the morning before work or school or something, y'know how it seems really cold even if the waters hot but if you take that same shower at the end of the day it won't be cold at all. It's sort of a motivation thing. The cold at BUD/S has one purpose and thats to weed out those who cant handle it, to sperate the weak from the strong. That last bit was written by an actual SEAL I just stole that for explanation purposes.
Well good luck, and remember "it pays to be a winner."

[YoungerPope]

Change your name or you'll have the mods and everybody else all over you.

[dive doc]

Elite,

welcome to NavySEALs.com.

You will need to change your name and remove SEAL from the title.

There are a lot of very knowledgable professionals on here that can give you some very valuable advice and suggestions to achieve your goals.

Please read the following posting:

http://navyseals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156824

Best of luck to you.

DD

[rsctt83]

Your name selection while OK for my space is not going to be tolerated here. Think about it for a second, you are on a Navy SEAL website and you select a name with elite and SEAL. No disrepect, but there are some people on this site that have done some things and none of them refer to themselves as elite. The word SEAL in your name is something you have to earn.

Consider yourself warned, if I see another post with EliteSEAL you will be dropped. You are very welcome to use site and we will do our best to help you, you just need to participate under a changed name.

If you need help doing this Tony@ustactical.com

[dellumsr]

I just stumbled upon the original thread about cold conditioning and figured I'd post a new thread with my 2 cents in case anyone was still curious.

I've learned from many years of competitive swimming that athletes who participate in training where their bodies are continually exposed to cold temperatures (not 50 degree ocean, but things like moderately cold pool water) develope and retain a slightly thicker layer of fat over their bodies as opposed to athletes who train in warmer climates (such as baseball players who run to florida when it gets a bit nippy). This is why swimmers don't appear to be as muscularly defined as they may actually be - I've heard enough complaining about it from the girls I've known over the years.

Jumping in a 50 degree pool might prepare you mentally, but more importantly it might get you pneumonia and keep you out of training for a month. Dealing with cold is simply mental; if you are actually in danger of hypothermia in BUD/s, they'll get you adequate medical attention. Rather than finding coping methods, just work hard at what you know will get you to where you want to be: the cold and sleep deprivation is made to weed out the mentally weak, they expose you to things you cannot prepare for, things you can't conquer by training, but sheer will and mental fortitude.

On that note, physiologically, I would wager that if you run in cold weather, swim in slightly colder water (high 70's) and such, you will probably build up a layer of fat that will keep you HEALTHY in the cold water, so you know you'll be fine. But unless you want to somehow turn the nerves off on your skin, it's gonna be COLD, and unless you are excited and willing to endure that cold for your brothers and your country, you won't be a SEAL. And rightfully so.

[thatguy2695]

I wonder if its partially genetic because I don't really get cold unless water is in the 50s and even then I don't feel like pain from cold that forces everyone else out of the water. Been to the doc and got my blood pressure checked cause my parents thought I was weird. Maybe my great Grand papi was an eskimo

[FinishOrElse]

I've been trying to figure out... how cold is "too cold"? The SEAL fitness guide has a chart for two mile swims, giving different requirements for different distances (its safe to swim two miles with no hood or wetsuit at 64 F). I'm thinking if I'm in fatigues and 5mm hood, I can probably get away with doing a mile or so in 58 or 59 degree weather. Any suggestions?

Also, this is from the SEAL Fitness guide Official PDF version page 48...

"Regular exposure to cold water immersion will help to develop physiological adaptations so that you will fare better when subjected to cold water on a mission."

Look out cold showers, here I come!

Joe

[deadly nedly]

The only physiological change I can think of that could possibly come from "cold water conditioning" would be a more rapid and/or more pronounced vasoconstriction to expose less of your blood to your colder extrimities. This would likely be a neurological adaptation, which means it would happen relatively quickly. Plus, if you're actually swimming in this water, it's going to be different. Your blood vessals open up to transport oxygen and other stuff during exercise, so more of your blood will be exposed to the cold, thus making you feel colder. Of course your body will be generating more heat, but it won't do you much good if you're not wearing any rubber.


That said, I don't think it's worth doing before you get to BUD/S. In all likelyhood, it's not going to help THAT damn much, and it's still going to suck no matter what you do. Then you're just going to be cold-- now, while you don't have to be cold-- for no reason, and you might even psyche yourself out, thinking that you're "ready" when actually, you're going to have to cowboy up and deal with alot of **** that wasn't in the brochure, just like everyone else.

[MrParker]

The only physiological change I can think of that could possibly come from "cold water conditioning" would be a more rapid and/or more pronounced vasoconstriction to expose less of your blood to your colder extrimities. This would likely be a neurological adaptation, which means it would happen relatively quickly. Plus, if you're actually swimming in this water, it's going to be different. Your blood vessals open up to transport oxygen and other stuff during exercise, so more of your blood will be exposed to the cold, thus making you feel colder. Of course your body will be generating more heat, but it won't do you much good if you're not wearing any rubber.

Yep, the winter before I left for boot camp I swam at home in our unheated pool. It was always around 62-64 degrees. I always swam without a wet suit, didn't have one. I would swim for no less then an hour each night with the bats. Now, years later, my hands and feet get cold easy. The lower to fingers on my hands get cold real easy and fast...that's all I got out of freezing my *** off swimming in the cold. It never got easier, if anything it got harder to get in the pool every night because I knew how damn cold it was. Don't worry about doing it before you go, I think Bud/s Sucks once said to not do it. You very quickly forget about being cold and wet.

[deadly nedly]

That's interesting. What do you do to reverse the adaptation? You'd have to cool your core and heat your extrimities in an attempt to correct your self-imposed circulation problems. It would theoretically work, to the same extent that the opposite adaptation did, but I have no evidence. You should be my lab rat, Mr Parker :)

Sounds like something you deal with at BUD/S or on the job, but should avoid otherwise. A few of my clients have circulation problems, (with inactivity at the source, not sustained exposure to cold) and it's a gnarly problem after it gets to a point. Numbness, tissue death and even amputation can result. Granted, those who get that bad are also usually obese diabetics with metabolic syndrome.

[MrParker]

Yeah it's wierd. But only associated with the cold. That's the only times it happens. More pronounced since those days swimming...then the navy didn't help with the watches in the snow and wind...Lucky I live in AZ so it's never too cold for too long ;)

If I wasn't such a wuss with the cold water these days, I'd be a lab rat for the $$$ haha.

I work in a hospital, I see the effects of those poor people with bad circulation all the time...fresh off the table...

[oldswabbie]

I honestly believe you can get "USE" to cold... but I dont think you ever really get "Conditioned" to it perse? Maybe I'm wrong ~ thats happended once or twice in my life :rolleyes:

I was stationed in Keflavik Iceland for a year. I got use to cold - alot of cold. Went back to Florida and thought nothing of 35 degrees. After a few years in the Florida HEAT.. I lost it. Now after being in South Carolina where there is very moderate humidity (near the mountains) around 46-52%... I go home to Florida and visit my Mom & Dad in Sarasota County and we just about DIE from Heat stroke. Down in Florida the average humidity run around 85% in the summer.

Sure it gets real hot up here in South Carolina, sometimes over 100, but the humidity (near Greenville) isnt that bad. But then again, hot is hot..and when its over 100 its just plain hot. Although, some of our guys in the Sandbox are dealing with Temps over 125+ .. cant complain can we :)


OldSwabbie

[joeybake158]

you cannot copndition yourself for being cold in BUD/S. you guys need to stop worrying so much and just do it and quit wondering this and that, those are the kind of people the Teams are looking for, operators who don't need to know if it is going to be cold or wet, or if they are going to be deprived of sleep, they just do it

[oldswabbie]

you cannot copndition yourself for being cold in BUD/S. you guys need to stop worrying so much and just do it and quit wondering this and that, those are the kind of people the Teams are looking for, operators who don't need to know if it is going to be cold or wet, or if they are going to be deprived of sleep, they just do it

You know, I couldnt have said it better myself. I think many of them are looking for ways to prepare ~ many of us have tried to explain ... Aint no way to prepare for what they are about to face...execept to DO IT ~ exactly as you just said.

OldSwabbie

[rsctt83]

I have spent a lot of time in extreme temperatures ranging from -40 to +132. As previous post stated "hot is hot and cold is cold" and you NEVER get used to them EVER.

If you search through the forums volumes were written about cold adaptation, some of it by VERY knowledgable people with MD background. In the end I think both extremes SUCK and you just deal with it as best you can everytime you are confronted with those situations. I think that many, many of you guys tend to overthink this stuff ALOT.

Everything that will happen to you does so for a reason, everytime you get wet and sandy it is done so for a purpose. Understand this and keep in mind it is only temporary and just go with the flow one step at a time.

As far as getting used to cold or heat, been there a lot and I sure as heck have not gotten used to it, it still sucks just as bad.

[kevgats]

agreed rsctt. i grew up in Upstate NY and went to college in Buffalo. its not just cold, but windy, so windy you can't walk to class somedays without going thru underground hallways. (the buildings provide a wind tunnel effect outside, people get literally knocked over...kinda funny actually). you never get used to the cold. i think it's mostly mental. maybe some genetics, i know i always get hot or warm much faster than other people, but on the flipside, i seem to deal with cold water and cooler temperatures better than the average person. could also be from swimming growing up and swimming in colder water some mornings outside (mid to high 60s temperature water), but i'd lean more towards genetics, as i know plenty of swimmers with similar backgrounds as mine who seem to feel colder easier than i do.

[bigv123]

Isn't this like about the 4th time this topic has come up?!? I think enough BTDT guys have chimed in to put this thing to rest already.

SUMMARY:
You cannot physiologically "adapt" to extreme cold or hot. During training your body will be colder than you've ever been before. You WILL feel it. The test is if you can DEAL with it. Perhaps...PERHAPS there is some element of mental training that could be garnered that would be beneficial but to do so would be exceptionally hazardous without trained professionals there to watch over you. Simply said, just don't do it.

V

[ambassador1]

Isn't this like about the 4th time this topic has come up?!? I think enough BTDT guys have chimed in to put this thing to rest already.
V

Agreed and this thread has now been merged with the original. No need to have 2 threads on the exact same topic.

ambassador1