Daily Sleep

[jabadiah]

In about 2 weeks when all my stuff is set right I'm gona have a workout that'll take some time. I can't figure out how much sleep I absulutely need. Here are my choices. I can either get 7-8 hours of sleep every day but at the expence of only 3 days for swimming workouts. Or I can get 7-8 hours of sleep Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday nights, with only as little as 4 to 5 hours of sleep Monday night and Wendsday night, With this second option I get to swim 5 days a week.

Do you guys think its ok for me to take the second option with 2 days of little sleep but 5 days for swimming? Or is the first one better, but i'll only get 3 days for swimming? I'm looking for maximum results from my workouts, is a little less sleep with more workout time better in the end than good sleep with less workout time?

[king henry viii]

if you want maximum results from your workouts then you're going to need 7-8 hours of sleep EVERY night so that your body can recover.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with swimming *only* 3 days a week. So long as you put out and accomplish what you set out to accomplish, you will still reap the benefits.

[bigv123]

KH8 is spot on. There's a saying in the fitness world "half-@ssed workouts yield half-@ss results". To be honest, that's not true. You don't get 75% of the benefit from 75% max effort. You don't get 50% of the benefit from 50% effort. That would be what we call a "linear function". Exercise is NOT a linear function. 75% effort MIGHT yield 40% results...or lower.

If you're training to improve athletic performance, sleep should never, EVER be compromised. The harder you train, the more your body will need. Sometimes you'll actually need MORE than 8 hours. Sometimes, 7 will be plenty. Give your body what it needs and it will reward you with amazing adaptation. Proper rest is critical to maximum performance and progress.

V

[gmt-nyc]

Hey BigV, I agree that sleep is critical, but what do you think about basing sleep patterns on REM cycles?

I ask because with work and my training, I've worked it out to get 6-7 hours of sleep per night, which allows for 2 full REM cycles (I've read that a REM cycle lasts about 3 hours). I pretty much wake up automatically at 5am, which comes at the end of the second REM cycle. I'm up and about quickly, have a great morning workout and am alert and functional all day. But if I get woken up by an alarm, or something interrupts my sleep in the middle of a REM cycle, I am much more of a mess to start the day.

So I'd rather get 6 hours than 7-8 hours because I feel better when a REM cycle completes, and wake up either naturally or with a nudge from an alarm. But is that sufficient rest? Are there any studies regarding sleep and workout recovery that discusses REM cycles? I searched around a bit, but didn't find anything. When I saw this thread figured why not bring it up.

[bigv123]

The information I've read, and I'm certainly NO expert on the topic, is that the REM cycle(s) is/are critical to the neurological system. I however don't know of any link between REM cycles and physiological recovery. That's not to say there isn't a link there, I'm just saying I've never heard of one. DD would probably be the most knowledgeable on the subject.

Also, I was under the impression that REM cycles only lasted for about 30 minutes. And, that most people had like 5-8 of them a night. I could most certainly be wrong on that though...

V

[rsctt83]

Everyone is different. Go out and try the various options and see if you can tolerate the more workout/less sleep option.

[jabadiah]

I'll be joining the navy this summer and will need to do my best on the swim in the PST. I'll start of with 3 days a week then switch over to 5 days. I'm pretty confident the less sleep option will be ok because i'm getting only 2 days of bad sleep every other day is 7-8 hours.

[kavon]

i think your correct BigV and it takes 3 hours to get to REM I forget but we went over all the phases of sleep in my psychology class...

[dive doc]

Ill chip in on this later on.

[rsctt83]

I don't know anything about the science of lack of sleep but what I lack in formal knowledge I have lots of actual experience in this topic. Most recently, last summer I recall where we were pushing through the third night with no sleep {yup zero hours}. I had an opportunity to get three hours sleep and from the moment I hit the sleeping bag I was out with a capital O and when I was woken up in three hours it felt as though I had laid down for one second. What I am getting at is the science may say one thing but when you are totally spanked after having pushed hard for many hours you may get to REM {whatever that means} in a second. Maybe it's all dependent upon hours with no sleep and effort. Just thought I would throw some practical field experience in there with the scientific stuff that I don't understand.

[searles72]

Rsctt-


Rapid eye movement (REM) sleep is marked by extensive physiological changes, such as accelerated respiration, increased brain activity, eye movement, and muscle relaxation.


The five stages of sleep, including their repetition, occur cyclically. The first cycle, which ends after the completion of the first REM stage, usually lasts for 100 minutes. Each subsequent cycle lasts longer, as its respective REM stage extends. So a person may complete five cycles in a typical night's sleep.


Thought this would help with the science part of it and I know DD can explain it the best!!

[mcbonas]

I don't know anything about the science of lack of sleep but what I lack in formal knowledge I have lots of actual experience in this topic. Most recently, last summer I recall where we were pushing through the third night with no sleep {yup zero hours}. I had an opportunity to get three hours sleep and from the moment I hit the sleeping bag I was out with a capital O and when I was woken up in three hours it felt as though I had laid down for one second. What I am getting at is the science may say one thing but when you are totally spanked after having pushed hard for many hours you may get to REM {whatever that means} in a second. Maybe it's all dependent upon hours with no sleep and effort. Just thought I would throw some practical field experience in there with the scientific stuff that I don't understand.

Just for general knowledge REM stands "Rapid eye movement", and is generally associated with deep sleep and dreaming. That being said, Rsctt, I would tend to agree with you. I'm only 22, so my time in college is still fresh in my mind. There were definitely a few all-nighters pulled during midterms and finals weeks. So after 48 hours plus of zero sleep, when you did hit the sack any sleep (be it 15 minutes between classes or 6-7 hours the following night) seemed to happen in the blink of an eye. I tend to view sleep sort of like my budget. If I have a sleep deficit, I try to balance it with a surplus on a following off day. My target goal weekly is somewhere in the ballpark of 50+ hours of sleep. This has seemed to work well for me.

[dive doc]

Hey guys,

just a quick two cents worth. I have a background in sleep medicine, research and clinical. Ive done quite a bit of work in this area regarding sleep in extreme environments. Some good posts so far.

Theres a lot of info floating around regarding sleep, types of sleep and what happens during sleep etc. These are just a few points that are relevant to both training and when you are in BUD/S. I will try and keep it as general as possible.

There has been long debate about whether sleeping short "can" be learned so to speak. There have also been numerous studies to try and address this question. In short, it has been shown that it cannot be learned or the body cannot be entrained to continuously function on less sleep (this applies to the bulk of the average population). There is a small proportion of the population (~2-3%) that are naturally short sleepers but it is rare. For most people 8.1 hrs is considered to be the required amount of sleep required to optimally function physically and mentally. However most people do not get this. When you begin to get less than ~5 hrs sleep/night, marked decrements in performance is noted. Optimally it is better to get the required amount of sleep per night, rather than try and accumulate it at the weekend.

One of the reasons your alertness peaks during the day or why its easier (and better) to grab a "nap" before sunrise is due to the bodys circadian rhythm or "bodyclock". Sunlight is the strongest factor in entraining the circadian rhythm and resetting it to a 24 hr day (however it is not the only factor). It also influences the levels of cortisol (responsible for making you more alert in the morning) and melatonin (responsible for making you more drowsy at night time). This is one of the reasons shift workers why shift workers can often have difficulty sleeping during the day even though they are tired.

If you cannot get your full quota of sleep at night it can be a BIG help if you manage to grab a power nap during the day (less than 40 mins, longer than this and you run the risk of drifting into deep sleep and wake feeling worse than you were when you fell asleep). It is your total sleep time during a day that accumulates rather than just your sleep at night time. A full sleep cycle is ~90 mins long including stages 1-4 and REM sleep. However, the proportion of REM sleep in a normal individual increases as a night progresses. For this reason it is more efficient to try and set your sleeping pattern to a 4.5 hr, 6 hr, 7.5 hr pattern as this will allow the bodyclock to function in tandem. If you wake in the morning during the REM cycle it is very likely that you are going to feel lousy for a few hours following that as it takes that long for the body to readjust. If you wake close to stage 1/stage 2 sleep after a REM cycle, you are that much closer to the bodys natural physiologic waking state and much more likely to wake feeling refreshed. If you can set your alarm to wake you within these parameters it is possible over a period of time for your body to "wake itself" at these natural time cues giving you the best chance of waking feeling as refreshed as possible.

As has been mentioned above, physical fitness, adequate hydration, good nutrition all aid the body in recovering faster and help it to heal itself. Sleep is more than just rest, it enables the body to recuperate and heal, both physically and mentally. This is why sleep deprivation is one of the most effective tools in testing an individual and is often used as a primary tool in both interrogation (and torture). By simply depriving an individual it quite rapidly begins to deprive the body of a basic need/requirement and disrupt integral body mechanisms and affect everything from the immune system to your psychological profile.

However, an interesting footnote in this regard. It is coming to the attention of researchers that super athletes (especially endurance) (eg. Dean Karnazes) have remarked that as they begin to reach that pinnacle of achievement and fitness that their sleep requirements have diminished. As his fitness increased, his sleep quota decreased to ~3-4 hrs per night without any apparent decrement in performance (there just werent enough hours in the day to train), however the mechanism is not fully understood. This is an intriguing phenomenon that im sure will be more heavily investigated in the near future.

DD

[jabadiah]

DD,
Am I right to take from what you've explained that if I set my alarm to wake up at the end or at the beginning of an REM cycle my body will adapt to that awake time and I won't need anything to wake me up anymore because my body will naturally wake up at that time?
This was going to be my question from the start, How do I train myself to wake up at a specific time without an alarm?
Also for DD and rsct, this is way of topic but its something i've been wondering about.
I want to get into Spec Ops more than anything and more than anything in the world want to become a diciplined warrior like a SEAL or many other SF guys. I don't know what I must do to prepare myself or where I should start. I can't workout alot because I'll keep getting injuries and at the times I have to rest and not do anything I can't help but feel like I'm wasting time. What do you guys suggest I do to prepare? I don't care what it is, I just want to always have something to do to prepare for my goal. I'm all up for studying, What books or subjects do you guys suggest I study to get ahead of others or be able to put a use to my dedication?

[bigv123]

Thanks for the great post DD. Excellent info.

V

[mcbonas]

Thanks divedoc! I'm taking huge notes on what you said! I had one question though. What is a good way to recover from, lets say 2 days no sleep, besides just going comatose the day after? Or is it better to try and re-establish that 8.1 hour optimium after an a 48 hour interuption?

[rsctt83]

"I want to get into Spec Ops more than anything and more than anything in the world want to become a diciplined warrior like a SEAL or many other SF guys. I don't know what I must do to prepare myself or where I should start. I can't workout alot because I'll keep getting injuries and at the times I have to rest and not do anything I can't help but feel like I'm wasting time."

There has to be reasons why you are getting injured, you need to delve into this and try and ascertain the causation and than remedy the situation. Not knowing anything about circumstances I would start off with a visit to doctor. In truth if your body cannot stand up to rigors of training there is no way that it will stand up to BUD/S. Absent any solution to your injury problems there is really no way you will be able to realize your goal.

We could be of more help if you explain about injuries, otherwise it's tough to be of any help.

As far as books, they are really of no use in preparing for SOF other than to inform you of what to expect and to guide your training. If you cannot train for SOF because of getting injuried you would not be able to perform as operator for the very same reasons.

In closing if you are serious you need to fix what is broke, there is no other way

[jabadiah]

Its a little complicated.
Last month I went all out in working out, I spent 40 hours working out every week. After 2 weeks of that my body started just braking down. My reps went down dramatically, I cracked a rib (which even now isn't healed yet), began to feel pain in my lower back, and besides that had a "soar/painful" feeling all over my body, on every possible muscle, even the smallest muscles in the most unused areas in my body hurt. I had to take a brake for 2 weeks. and thats about it.

[gmt-nyc]

DD- thanks for the informative post. So, based on what you wrote, and based on my schedule, the 6 hours of sleep I try and get each night should be sufficient and in sync with my circadian clock.

So my goal will remain at getting 6 hours of sleep per night. But if I end up getting to sleep late, I'll aim for 4.5 hours to avoid waking up in the middle of a REM cycle, and if I end up getting to bed early I should shoot for 7.5 hours. I just hate feeling half dead when I wake up, though that may be due to the WODs Rord has been cooking up. :)

[bigv123]

Last month I went all out in working out, I spent 40 hours working out every week. After 2 weeks of that my body started just braking down.

This is what we call "over-training". 40 hours a week is WAY over what your body can recuperate from given even moderate intensity. I workout 3 times a day (only once on Sundays) and don't put in even half that many hours. I bike for 90 minutes first thing in the morning. Right after work, I hit the gym for about 60-75 minutes. Then, right before bed, I hit the track for 30-45 minutes. Even worst-case scenario, that's about 20 hours of work per week.

Point being, you can't just go from 0 to 100 mph like that without suffering some negative consequences. In your case, your body started to break down and you couldn't recover from your last workout before you hit the next one for the same body part(s)/movements. My advice, work your way up slowly. Gradually build up not only your strength but also your exercise toleration. Each week add a tiny little bit, maybe you add 1 set or you do 5 more reps on each set...something along those lines. There may be guys out there that train this much. Perhaps Rsctt and some of his mega-endurance, terminator-esque compatriots train this much. But, mortals like you and me have to work up to that kind of volume.

V

[rsctt83]

You are correct at those levels of intensity your body will strat breaking down. I never really added up the hours I spent training per week. I am trying to do this now, right now I am at around thirty hours. I do two a day sessions so its broken up between runs and the PT/CF and swimming. As it gets closer to summer I will probably be at 40 hours per week. My job affords me quick access to beach to get in mid-day runs and my schedule allows me sufficient time to complete the runs and I go much longer one day during weekends. I do my PT and/or swimming at night and that usually takes another two hours or so.

I have a long background doing this stuff and just as bigv and others have said it has taken years and years and years to work up to this level. Having said that when I am at those levels I feel tired and fatigued almost all of the time. My body is really used to being stressed and I eat really well, still most mornings I struggle to climb stairs at work because my legs are hammered. For what I do this type of training is necessary as much of what I do I do when I am in various states of fatigue. The game for me is to keep going at it hour after hour.

When I start tapering off for something that's when the strength kicks in and I get too enjoy the feeling of having fresh legs again. There is no reason for any of you to even think about this type of training, when you put max stresses on your body that is where injuries can and do occur.

On the topic of sleep, I never much thought about it. When I am recovering from a multi-day sleepless event I just sort of listen to my body and sleep as much as my body requires, perhaps the first day a bit more sleep than usual say 9 - 10 hours but after that probably 8 hours. I do recall that during the first few nights I fall asleep very quickly and sleep very soundly.

[jabadiah]

Thats another thing. I don't know anything about nutrition. At this point I eat twice a day. Right after school i have a little snack because i'm about to go workout, then i eat a pretty good meal around 9:30 and 10:00 pm which is right before i go to bed.

[searles72]

I was always taught not to eat that late and right before bed....Id check into that if I was you.........

[scskowron]

I was always taught not to eat that late and right before bed....Id check into that if I was you.........

Searles, this may be the conventional wisdom, and I really don't know the science behind it, but let me say that my personal experience totally disagrees.

Generally my schedule during the school week goes like this: wake up 8-9AM, class/homework/etc until 10PM. WOD and distance run from 10PM-1AM.

When I come back around 1AM, I take a shower, and eat until I am full. I am in bed by 2AM. I have never ever had a problem sleeping under this schedule. Often times I wake up exactly around 8:30, meaning my body has been conditioned to some extent on this schedule. However if I am not careful I can end up sleeping until noon on the weekends (I never sleep through class).

I think it may be a combination of 3 things: getting only 6-7 hours a sleep a night will make anyone sleep easy, I sleep right after I workout so I'm already fatigued, and additionally I get sleepy around 20 minutes after my final meal so it may be due to a carb/sugar crash which makes me lethargic and puts me to sleep.

What I have found out though, is that eating a lot of carbs before bed is bad. I generally try to eat high-protein foods before bed to repair my muscles and to avoid putting on excess fat. My eating/sleeping schedule also helps me maintain a consistent bathroom schedule, which is helpful.

As a college student I have to deal with some strange schedules but it's been working for me so far, and I like it.

[searles72]

Im not a nutritionist in the least but I just stated thats what I was taught- if foods are eated too close to bedtime they sit on your stomach
and they take a long time to digest therefore the calories take longer to burn off. But comfort foods tend to help many sleep from what I've been told.

Like I said prior, I would look into the eating habits just before "lights out"!

Definitely not saying I'm correct, just what I was taught.....:)

[scskowron]

Yes, I was taught that as well...I'm just saying it doesn't hold true for me. Who knows why-- I don't really care to be honest.

[n00433478]

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/10/polyphasic-sleep/

Polyphasic sleep is that thing where you sleep about 6 times a day for about 30 minutes. Steve pavlina also has a log of him doing the sleep schedule for about 5 1/2 months. It goes into detail how your very deprived of sleep at first, but then your mind learns to go into REM (dreaming sleep) much quicker. I def would never do this nor do i think just anybody can do it, but it is pretty interesting.

Since reading this it made me realize i typically wake up before my alarm each morning and i just lay in bed, eventually drifting back to sleep. Then my alarm goes off during a dream and i get up, but im really tired. So, DD, do you think i would be able to setup my natural bodyclock by just getting up when i wake up before my alarm? Regardless, i may try it just to see how it goes.

[montana]

I was always taught not to eat that late and right before bed....Id check into that if I was you.........


http://www.statssheet.com/articles/article49451.html

This is an interesting article on eating before bed.

[jabadiah]

I went searching for some more info on Polyphasic sleep, the guys that tried it or live on this sort of sleep schedule sleep 15-30 mins every 3-4 hours. I was wondering whether I could switch over to this sleeping schedule but instead of sleeping every 3-4 hours sleep every 30 mins of every hour, just to complete all the cycles of this sleep during the night. Anyone got anything on this?

[king henry viii]

I went searching for some more info on Polyphasic sleep, the guys that tried it or live on this sort of sleep schedule sleep 15-30 mins every 3-4 hours. I was wondering whether I could switch over to this sleeping schedule but instead of sleeping every 3-4 hours sleep every 30 mins of every hour, just to complete all the cycles of this sleep during the night. Anyone got anything on this?

What would be the point of doing this? What are you going to do for the other 30 minutes you're awake? I highly doubt 30 minutes is enough time to go into REM sleep. Isn't that the most important stage?

[surfduck]

Polyphasic sleep ...... huh?

Come on guys stop over thinking this stuff, otherwise known as analysis paralysis. If you want to get in the game it's not that complicated, really just work your butts off and get ready, hit the deck with an open mind and lot's of desire and just roll the dice and see what happens.

One thing for sure polyphasic or whatever is not the answer, rule number one if you can't spell it ignore it

[so_calmaxwell@yahoo.com]

I think everyone is different. Try less sleep and see how things work. With my busy work/school/training scedule I usually get only 5 hours, I also eat very strict diet and alternate cardio and weights every other day. I usually average about 18 miles a week with extra HIIT that I don't even count. I also think everyone's body adapts. Less sleep might effect you for a couple of weeks then you might find it doesn't do much. I always push myself beyond the old limit. Maybe it will give you something to remember when your pushing through "hell week".

Then again.. I also recover very fast. If your strained or you feel too sore then catch some z's.

[kevgats]

as far as overtraining (from a couple pages before), whenever you are doing two or three, separate, workouts a-day, your body goes into chronic fatigue. this is why "tapering" works in most sports. simply, you finally give your body enough time to recover, so you can perform that much better.