Post workout Nutrtion, (importance)

[thrillseeka]

Hello everyone, I just joined this site wish i would have found it sooner. Well this is my first post and i thought i would try to provide some help to some, Some of you probally already know about this, But when you are training as hard as we are nutrition is very important.
Here is a great article about post workout nutrition and making a "Post workout ****tail"
Check it out http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/windowofopportunity.php

Ive been training for about 5 months and i have got 11 more to go.

[montstar]

Skimmed the link. But you'll find that most of the people around here aren't into body building. Muscle doesn't float. Personally I prefer a bit of chocolate milk after a work out.

[thrillseeka]

Its not about the bodybuilding aspect.
If your doing 6 sets of 25 push ups one week then next week you start doing 6 sets of 35, you are increasing muscle tissue.
Anyway the article just puts the science behind it out in the open.
DOnt get me wrong i love chocolate milk :) Its got your insulin spike and your protein synthesis all in one!

Anyone here a believe of supplementing glutamine?

[kidrick]

When it comes to exercise my best philosphy is K.I.S.S.

[gmt-nyc]

I'm with montstar. I either drink a chocolate milk, usually 12-16oz, or a half bottle of gatorade with a scoop of pure whey protein, depends on the nature of the workout - metcon, strength/oly or a run.

Also, great are an all natural peanut butter and jelly sandwich on multigrain bread or a clif bar. Typically, I remember from strength training, you want a 4:1 carb-to-protein ratio in post workout snacks. all of the snacks listed here have other than the gatorade/whey mix are 4:1. The gatorade/whey mix I like taking after strength training since the body absorbs whey quickly, and needs it most post lifting since the purpose of those exercises is to build muscle. Hope this helps.

[wnbfpro24]

Your natty p-nut butter is going negate your body's ability to efficiently restore glycogine stores after a strenous workout... Your best bet is to exclude the majority of fats until the meal after your PWO shake or meal.

[gmt-nyc]

Your comment makes sense if the fats are consumed too soon after a workout as I didn't think about the impact of consuming fats negatively impacting glycogen restoration..

I found this article a long time ago, and thought it would be useful for those interested in this topic to read:

http://www.askmen.com/sports/fitness_top_ten/34_fitness_list.html

I thought it was one of the best articles on the subject, with links to a lot of sources for further research.

[rsctt83]

This is a good time to get you guys thinking about foods, which ones work and don't work for you. Nutrition is key in doing well in extreme endurance events for a number of reasons the most obvious is that you need fuel and lots of it, it has been said that BUD/S burn upwards of 5,000 - +6,000 calories per day. The other really important point is that some foods you consume might not sit well with you when you head back out and have to throttle up again. If you ask people at multi-day adventure races or ultra marathons what went wrong, predominately the answers will revolve around stomach issues. If you get a chance in your training when you are going long ..... remember training slogan "go long to get strong" try different foods in the middle of your training, see what combinations work and which ones don't work. Than when you are at BUD/S you might have a better understanding of what to eat and what to stay away from so you can perform well when you head back out.

[scskowron]

If your doing 6 sets of 25 push ups one week then next week you start doing 6 sets of 35, you are increasing muscle tissue.

Where did you learn this?

From what I learned, mass gains are always accompanied with strength gains but strength gains are not always accompanied with mass gains.

And increasing sets of pushups is not even a "strength" gain, it's an endurance gain. By way of comparison if you are able to increase your single-session running mileage does that mean you are increasing muscle tissue? Competitive runners don't increase muscle tissue size as they improve. You could be right, but it doesn't make any sense to me.

[bigv123]

scs is complete right. One thing you guys need to understand is that there's a very big and real difference between muscular "strength" and muscular "endurance". Strength is a measure of how MUCH you can lift, push or pull. Endurance is a measure of how MANY times you can lift, push or pull it. In the common usage most folks just use "strength" to serve for both...and usually it's not a problem. At least not until you start trying to make performance improvements. the ignorance that's passed on person to person by using this single word to mean two totally different things catches up with you as soon as you start training. You say to yourself something like the following:"well, i need to get ready for BUD/S. I need to get my pull ups and push ups higher. I better start working on my strength." Then you go off to a web site or buy a book where a certified trainer, like myself, details how to do that. The problem is, the "strength" we're talking about is NOT what you're really wanting. So you go off on this new training program and your bench press is up to 225 lbs, but, you've only added 10 push ups to your PST and you're confused. It all starts with the lazy usage of the word "strength".

To the point at hand, increases in muscular cross-section area are best achieved by gains in real strength. These two factors have been shown time and time again to be very directly related. Can you gain strength w/o adding muscle size? Yes, absolutely. But, it's very very hard and the gains come very, VERY slowly. This is what power lifters have to do to stay in their weight groups (obviously excluding the super heavyweights). On the flip side of the coin, can you gain muscle mass w/o gaining strength? Yes, absolutely. But, once again, it's very very difficult.

Now, just because there's a method that has been shown to be THE most effective, doesn't mean at all that it's the only way to skin that cat. research has shown time and time again that heavy weight training with a rep range between 4-6 reps is THE most efficient method to produce gains in strength. Period. But, it's not the only way...just the most EFFICIENT way. Will you gain strength by doing gazillions of push ups? Absolutely. Will you gain strength by doing a bazillion sit ups? Yup. My point is that your STRENGTH gains will not be optimal for the time you spent. Your muscular ENDURANCE, however, will be optimized.

Understand also that there's a law of limited return on invested time in effect in fitness training. Doing one movement or exercise for 2 hours a day, every day will NOT yield results as good as doing 2 related exercises of the same muscle group for an hour each day, every day. The point being, cross training has a synergistic effect on the entire body. Don't just lock yourself into doing 1 thing day in and day out. You'll get a MUCH better net effect by mixing in some variation. The cross-fit workouts usually are an excellent means of doing that imho. Well, I could go on and on, but, I think i've spent enough time preaching for one day...

V

[scskowron]

bigV, great post. It's what I thought but I don't have the experience to say for sure.

This is why certain Crossfit days are strength days (like Deadlift 1-1-1-1-1 or Push Press 5-5-5-5-5) and others are metcons (like Diane where you do 21-15-9 deadlift 225# and HSPUs).

It starts to get blurred however for little guys like me. Deadlifting 225# is easy for some people but for me it's a big challenge so Diane is more like a strength workout. Similarly for someone who is too weak to do a pullup then doing 10 pullups is a strength workout, but for the average trainee doing 10 pullups is just working on endurance and doesn't build any strength.

[bigv123]

/nod that's completely understandable. 225# is middle warm-up weight for me on deads. But, for those who have considerably less muscle mass and fewer years strength training, 225# would most certainly be a low rep strength workout.

V

[thrillseeka]

Where did you learn this?

From what I learned, mass gains are always accompanied with strength gains but strength gains are not always accompanied with mass gains.

And increasing sets of pushups is not even a "strength" gain, it's an endurance gain. By way of comparison if you are able to increase your single-session running mileage does that mean you are increasing muscle tissue? Competitive runners don't increase muscle tissue size as they improve. You could be right, but it doesn't make any sense to me.

Ok so Muscular hypertrophy can occur from doing 3 ses of 50 push ups. An endurance exercise, And it also occurs doing 3 sets of 5 reps of say a close max of 225 of bench press. Now when you recover Your saying the new tissue only grows from doing the bench press and not the pushups? I was under the assumption that new muscle fibers were created no matter how you achieve hypertrophy. It has to be because you can do more push ups just like you can lift more weight? I know there is two different types of hypertrophy but "NEW" Tissue is still being formed. If you read back i didnt say anything about "muscle sizes" anyway nutrition still being the most important factor in any training program.

[bigv123]

First and foremost, you have a gross conceptual error. Hypertrophy is NOT the "addition" of new muscle tissues. Hypertrophy is the enlargement of existing muscle tissues. Studies have shown that in post-adolescent people, hyperplasia (the addition of new cells) is almost impossible. There have been cases shown in animals where extreme stretching under additional load can cause a hyperplasia response. But, this has never been demonstrated in humans and frankly, the conditions under which it MIGHT be possible...most people would consider torture...literally.

In any case, your conceptual error aside, what you're really talking about without knowing it is called neuro-muscular efficiency. Muscles fire based on electrical impulses. A given muscle cell either fires completely, 100% or it doesn't fire at all. There's no middle ground. Think of it like a light switch...on or off. One of the major components of strength and even more important for muscular endurance is getting as many muscle fibers in a given muscle body to fire at the same time as possible. This is called neuro-muscular efficiency. When training Type II muscle fibers (the so called "slow" twitch fibers) you can accomplish this via high rep (~25) or ultra high rep (>50) ranges. Make no mistake, you're inducing a very very small hypertrophic effect, if any at all. The gains you make are due to increasing your neuro-muscular efficiency rather than increasing the cross-sectional area of the given muscle cells. This is exactly why guys that can pump out 200+ push ups in a given set, don't have 54" chests.

Let me know if you have any more related questions...

V

[j-lat]

Typo - Type II (a and b) are the fast twitch muscle fibers. The white ones that primarily work without oxygen. Type I muscle fibers are the slow twitch, endurance fibers. They're red and work primarily with oxygen.

Judging from your previous posts, Big V, I know you know what you're talking about - perhaps just a typing mishap. Just wanted to clarify that nuance.

[bigv123]

Yep, you're absolutely right. Thanks for catching my mistake. I should have caught that in my proof read...but c`est la vie. Thanks for catching that.

V

[SealTeam6_Wannabe]

V- Background Info: I'm currently 17, 6' even, 155, about 9% body fat (I've had doctors and nurses tell me I need to add fat in any way possible, but can't seem to gain anything but muscle, and that comes slowly.) Since you're a physical trainer, I'd like your input on our current workout set that we perform in weights class. We switch off days of core lifts, with auxillary lifts that are specific to the core lifts and also auxillaries for every day. We have the class every two days, so we return to the same core lift every 4 days. Our lift structure is

Day 1

Bench Press, usually 3X3 or 3X8
Bench Press auxillaries- Chest flies, pullovers, pushups, and dips (chest flies and pullovers done in sets of 3X8 interspersed between reps on the bench, pushups and dips sets of 3X20)

Squats, also usually 3X3 or 3X8
Squat auxillaries- Leg extensions and leg curls, 3X8 interspersed.

Day 2

Incline Press, 3X3 or 3X8
Incline Press auxillaries- Incline chest flies, pullovers, pushups, dips (same numbers as bench)

Hang Cleans, 3X3 or 3X8
Clean auxillaries- Jump lunges (w/ dumbbells) 3X20 and stair-step ups (also w/ dumbbells) 3X20.

Every Day

"Dumb bell workout"

30-35 lb dumbbells-

Shoulders: 3 sets of: 20 front raises, 20 shoulder flies, 10 military press
30 second break
Arms: 3 sets of: 20 regular curls, 20 hammer curls, 20 reverse curls, 20 tricep extensions (50-60 lb dumbbell for triceps).
30 second break
Back: 3 sets of: 20 good-mornings, 20 straight-leg deadlifts, 10 bent-over rows.
30 second break
Legs: 3 sets of: 20 jump lunges, 20 squats
30 second break

Countdowns of pushups and situps from 20-1


This workout is almost never changed up, except for the rare occassions that he decides he wants to watch us sprint a mile or play "sprint tag" against eachother. Does this workout seem well rounded and heading in the right direction for BUD/s to you? I noticed the lack of pull-ups and started doing them on my own, now some friends and I claim a corner with a bar and do pull ups and muscle-ups with any down-time in the class. Occasionally (when teach isn't around) we'll do burnouts on bench, starting with say 200 lbs (my current max) do max reps, drop ten lbs, max reps, another ten lbs, you get the idea. Do you have any suggestions of what else we could do to gain some more strength and endurance or do you think that this current workout is sufficient? Also, what kind of foods do you believe would be best to have after these workouts? Since we only get 10 minutes after our workout to go to the locker room and change before next class, I would imagine energy bars would be the best bet? Any help or input is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Marcus

[bigv123]

Marcus,
The first question you need to answer is "What is your goal? What is it that you're trying to achieve?" Without a clear understanding of where you want to go, how will you ever know if you're making progress to that end? Now, at least for the moment, I'll presume that you're interested in SOF in some manner and by your forum alias it's probably a safe bet that you're interested in the SEALs. So, i'll assume for the sake of this post that you want to get into shape for BUD/S. Let me know if this is or is not the case. Because, training for BUD/S is unlike just about any other training program you can think of. Rsctt might add that training for extreme endurance events has a lot of similarities as well.

We're obviously limiting this discussion to "strength" training and not aerobic conditioning (running, swimming). This first and most concerning thing you said was:
This workout is almost never changed up
This is a big red flag. In fitness circles the term that's kicked around is Periodization. What we've found over the course of the past 50 years is that the best physical results are gained NOT by hammering the same movement in the same rep/set structure with ever increasing volumes, but rather, when we feed the body a diet of exercise that is significantly changed every so often. We can change the movements used, the reps structure, the set structure, rest time between sets...or any combination of those factors. This is what we call Periodization. And it's absolutely critical to making physical performance gains in the most efficient (read: fastest) manner possible. This doesn't mean that you can't make progress on the Bench Press by doing 3 sets of 8 reps every 4th day for 6 months. You can, and you will. What it DOES mean is that with a properly structured Periodization implemented into your workout program, you'll actually make better, faster progress.

Another thing that concerns me, and I see this in a lot of the workouts done by SOF wannabe's, is 100% focus on only the muscle groups used for the PST events. Now, I'm not a SEAL and i've never been to BUD/S and franky i'm just a SEAL wannabe like a lot of other guys here, but, from what I've seen, heard, and read the idea of focusing your training on a few specific muscle groups so you can max out your PST is probably a very bad idea.

The "strength" elements of the PST include push-ups, sit-ups and pull-ups. The PRIMARY muscle groups involved are chest, shoulders, tricepts, abdominals and hip flexors, upper back, biceps and forearms. So, i'll ask you...what's missing from this list? The answer...the entire lower body! Do you think for a minute that you're lower body isn't going to get worked at BUD/S? I think that would be a foolish idea. The stronger your lower body the faster your swim times will be. The stronger your lower body the more resistant to running-leg injuries. Your lower body is the "base of the pyramid" that your upper body is built on. If I had a nickel for every guy I ever saw in a gym that had a decent/good upper body and pigeon legs...well, "I could retire to Amsterdam, eat muffins all day and have 18 year old girls sponge bathe me every day...I could become Jabba the American!" Thanks to Patton Oswald for letting me temporarily steal that bit. :)

Also, you didn't give any weight ranges for any of the movements. At your size (about 140# of lean mass), your weight ranges are probably pretty limited. The question now becomes...how long do you have before you plan on joining the Navy and going to BUD/S? Ordinarily, i would prescribe at least 6 months of REAL strength work. You may not have the luxury of time however if you're already 17. I like the fact that the core of your program is complex, multi-joint movements. I would like to see more consolidation of specific movements of a particular muscle group. Doing bench presses on Day 1 and then Incline Presses on Day 2 is counter productive. You're shooting yourself in the foot. To start with, I would focus 2 days on upper body split by "push" movements vs. "pull" movements and have a 3rd day for lower body. Make sure you're doing the hardest, heaviest movements FIRST. Also, add in some deadlifts. And make sure you get some training on how to do them RIGHT. Squats and deadlifts are the 2 MOST incorrectly done movements in the gym...with incline presses coming in a strong 3rd. You CAN injure yourself if you don't know how to do these lifts correctly. Start with a weight range that you can CONTROL. The adaptation of the stabilizing muscles around the primary mover is almost as important as hitting that main muscle group. And, training the stabilizers will be a primary defense against injury! And last but not least, stretch, stretch, stretch. I can't emphasize this enough. If i could go back 20 years and give myself one single bit of advice...it would be to stretch...a lot. Do yourself a favor and just think of stretching as part of your actual workout. Stretch between each set. Stretch after you finish your workout. Stretch every single day...every major muscle group. Proper stretching yields about a gazillion positive benefits to the actively training subject. I could write a few pages on the positive effects of stretching. For now, just take it as gospel...stretching is your friend. Just do it.

that's should be a good start...
V

[scskowron]

As you can see BigV has a great wealth of information on strength training - I would concur with everything he said.

One thing that I really don't like about your routine is the isolation movements. Like barbell curls, leg extensions, and basically anything that requires a machine. You'll notice that virtually nobody who is very serious about BUD/S (at least from the programs I've seen) does these anymore.

Isolation exercises aren't really functional. To take an example I read in another thread, perhaps you're going to need to carry a heavy box of ammunition and heave it over your shoulder and carry it a half mile. Doing barbell curls does not mimic that motion. A better idea is to do a power clean onto the shoulder. Or picking up a fallen man. That's similar to a deadlift. You said military press. Now I'm not sure if that is with a machine or with a barbell, but if it's with a machine, how realistic is that in real life? In real life you won't have a track to prevent the thing you're lifting from falling over - you have to provide that power yourself.The list goes on...

[bigv123]

I wasn't going to mention that quite yet...but yes, the "isolation" movements really aren't going to do much for you. Body Builders use them to get mere "time under tension" for specific muscles and even specific heads of a muscle to try and induce growth in a particular way. Unless you have a glaring strength deficiency in a specific muscle group, I would avoid isolation movements and stick to the big, heavy compound movements.

V

[augy]

V, what type of compound movement exercises are you refering too? i understand isolation lifting on machines, freeweights etc. but, i am trying to increase my knowledge about compound movements and workouts, any books, specific workouts, or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[bigv123]

Compound exercise are those that require motion/movement from/through more than one joint. For example, the bench press. The upper arm is in motion (via the shoulder joint) and the lower arm is also in motion (via the elbow joint). That's the "strict" definition. In practice, most PTs use this term to define basic, heavy movements.

Barring a specific injury, EVERYONE should be doing these 3 movements imho. You'll see these referred to as "the Big 3", "the Basic 3", or something of the like. They are:

Bench press
Barbell Squat
Deadlift

You could do NOTHING but these 3 movements and have a pretty darn good routine. Here are some other excellent (imho) compound movements, in no particular order:

Barbell Military Press (front ONLY)
Leg Press
Decline Close-grip Bench Presses
T-Bar Rows
Bent-over dumbell rows
Pull Ups (with weight)
Stiff-Leg dead lifts (this is almost not a compound movement)
weighted push ups

Here are some alternates:
Front squats
Standing military presses
low row cable
lat pull downs
Good mornings
hack squats
sissy squats

The BIG key in ANY weight lifting program is that you have to push the outside of the envelope. Once you determine the appropriate rep range for a given set, you need to load up as much weight as you possibly can to hit that last rep and not a single rep more. Here's the rub, in my experience when someone gets to what they THINK is the last rep, about 95% of the time they have 2 more reps in them and they quit early because it's too hard. INTENSITY is the name of the game gents. The name of the game is "Lift Heavy...or go home". The same exact mentality can be applied to muscular endurance training where you may do sets of 100. You STILL load up as much weight as you can to hit that 100 rep mark. If you've done a set and feel that you could do 2-4 more reps once you've rested about 20 seconds...then you failed and cheated yourself by not giving 100%. Move OUT of your comfort zone gentlemen.

V

[SealTeam6_Wannabe]

Wow. BigV and Scs, you guys rock. I come back after one day and find a wealth of information on here. Thanks a lot guys, all of this really helps. I'm actually home sick today, I noticed yesterday that when doing some distance sprints in weights class that I was coming in 2nd and 3rd, not at all the norm for me. Then last night started the hacking and coughing, so i'm resting today.

To answer some of your questions, I'm currently a Junior in highschool, and my goal is DEFINATELY SEALs, so my goal is a good level of fitness for BUD/s. Sorry I wasn't as clear on that as I could have been. I still have a year and a half of highschool left, so I'm looking to be in BUD/s in a little under 2 years, give or take. Like I said, the training we do here is part of a class, with the teacher mandating all of these workouts. It's not really an option. I'm simply asking this: on my own, what kind of workouts would be the most beneficial for me to be doing before BUD/s? I already had some doubts about what we do in weights, the teacher literally preaches Isolation, and tells us that for maximum effect "Isolate the muscle being worked as much as possible" He's old school weight-lifting, and to be honest I'm not exactly sure how much experience and knowledge he has with the subject.

On to the good stuff. For bench I currently max at 200, so I'm repping between 180 and 190, depending on how I feel that day and how much working out he's had us do before. Some times he has us do Dumbbells first, so that your arms are pretty much dead before you hit the core lifts. Incline is almost the exact same as bench, repping about 180. Squats (sadly) about the same, with hang cleans (even more sadly) repping about 110, on a good day. For all of the dumbbell exersize I currently use 30's or 35's, with a 55 or 60 for tricep extensions. Every excersize I mentioned is free weights, with the exception of the leg curls/leg extensions. That machine and the lat pulls machine are the only two machines we have. Think of a little redneck school where our "weight room" is a storage closet with some foam pads thrown on the ground and some benches, cages, and a couple of racks of dumbbells. You get the idea.

I must admit, I am somewhat of one of those "chicken-legged" guys you mentioned. I can bench 200 but can only clean 110-120. This has been a large red flag for me and while keeping up on bench and upper body, I've been focusing more of my energy on cleans and squats.

Thanks again for taking time out of your day and sharing your expertise guys, it's really appreciated.

Marcus

[bigv123]

I'm going to give you guys a little piece of information here. It's perhaps THE single most important aspect of weight training, and, it's routinely ignored oor just outright not known. Are you ready?

All exercise elicits some type of physiological response from the body. I.E. there's SOME type of adaptive response to exercise. This is the whole reason we work out to begin with right? Well, it shouldn't surprise anyone that different exercise elicits a different response from the body. Running 3 miles a day, every day gives you a different result than lifting heavy weights every other day at the gym right? Here's the nugget. MANY university studies have shown that heavy lifting via compound movements elicits an increase in blood serum testosterone and Human Growth levels. No other form of exercise does this. Period.

Now, if you haven't ever heard that before AND you truly understand the implications of the statement you either just wet yourself or have already left to go to the gym...or both. To say that this concept is powerful would be a gross understatement gents. Professional body builders and pro athletes from every sport you can name pay thousands of dollars a month and skirt the laws of most countries to try and pump more and more of these 2 chemicals into their bodies. And for good reason. There are absolutely no better performance enhancing substances on the planet than test and GH.

Now, don't get the idea that by lifting weights you're going to turn into The Incredible Hulk. That kind of freaky mass is only achieved via orders of magnitude more test and GH taken synthetically than the human body can generate. Lifting heavy breaks your body down temporarily, but, in addition to building it back stronger than before it also trains your recovery systems to be more efficient. Additionally, it also makes your muscles more resistant to being broken down in the future, what we call the "anti-catabolic" effect.

This isn't to say that you guys should scrap your existing workout schedules and become gym rats. That would be asinine. A large chunk of your training NEEDS to be specific to the activities you'll be performing. Thus, push ups, pull ups, sit ups, running, swimming, and Cross Fit workouts are ALL primary parts of the tool box you use to get ready for whatever SOF endeavor you choose. My point is only to shed some light on the fact that heavy weight training can ALSO be an invaluable tool in that preparation.

V

P.S. When you can do 25 dead hang pull ups with 300lbs total hanging from the bar, you have arrived ;)

[SealTeam6_Wannabe]

Great stuff, I actually already understood that part of exercise, and it makes sense that the compound movements are the best to trigger these responses. Great explanation for that pumped up, exhilerated feeling like you can take on the world and half-wish for some chump to look at you the wrong way after a good workout. Also a great explanation for why Silvester Stalone got caught trying to board a U.S. airplane with 100+ vials of HGH. Be careful what you say on here, V, Idk about anyone else, but I got the mental image of some little 15 yr old SEAL Wannabe (not unlike a younger version of myself, lol) running to the gym to belt on 150+lbs and jump for that pullup bar. haha. I'm sure you can think of a couple of people who frequent these boards that just might take that seriously, AND try for it without a proper work-up to it.

Once again, great info. I plan to use it to the best of my abilities on my next trip to the gym.

[mike3437]

Great thread with concise explanations. Keep it up, guys.

I wanted to bring it back to post-workout nutrition. In the gym, I'm training for BUD/s and the PST, using CrossFit and one of Stew Smith's plans in addition to some lifting of my own devising, but out of the gym, I am an endurance triathlete. What V said about increasing neuro-muscular efficiency versus hypertrophy really hit home for me, because any increase in size for me must be worth it in terms of functional gains, because I have to carry that weight around while swimming, running and biking.

I'm fine as far as planning micro, meso, and macro cycles for both my weight training and my endurance training, but I am still trying to find the sweet spot for nutrition. Does anyone have any advice in this regard? What would be a good balance of carbohydrates and proteins for a post-workout meal/shake, given my needs of not only having the carbs available to replenish glycogen stores, but also protein for protein synthesis? I find it hard to believe the 4:1 ratio of carbs to protein always the optimal balance, but that's what you guys are here to tell me.

[bigv123]

Mike,
The answer really depends on whether you need to make any body composition changes or not. Most all the people I talk to in regards to training want/need to lose fat. From what you say, this may not be the case for you. So...let's run with that as one of our parameters. If this isn't the case, just let me know and we can rework the numbers...

First things first...how many calories should you be taking in every day? If you go "by the books" and look up the activity tables that have been around since Moses...they will tell you that very active (read: training hard) individuals need about 1.7 x BMR calories per day just to break even. Personally, for just training for BUD/S, I don't think this is enough. Obviously, not everyone has the same metabolism. Guys with a slower metabolism can probably get away with 1.7. High metab guys will probably need to crank it up to 1.9 or even somewhere above 2.0 x BMR. Honestly gauge your body type and metabolism and start with something between 1.7 and 2.1...adjust in 0.1 increments every week to get it dialed in. You're probably wondering wtf "BMR" is right? BMR stands for Basal Metabolic Rate. It's the number of calories that you'd burn if you woke up in the morning and laid in bed all day and did nothing. There are several methods to calculating BMR. You'll have to take some body measurements. I STRONGLY suggest you take the average of several methods. I tend to get the most accurate results that way.

OK, so now you know how MUCH to eat. How do we split that up during the day? The reasons behind this are a little bit beyond the scope of this thread and the boards here, but, suffice it to say that I, once again, STRONGLY recommend you split you daily caloric intake between 5-6 meals. This WILL require some planning on your part. However, it will make a HUGE difference in recovery and energy levels.

Now then, how do we apportion those daily calories. I.E. how much protein, carbs, and fats should we eats. Before I give you my recommended percentages, remember that every workout you do regardless of what type it is...breaks down the body in some way. The physiological micro trauma you induce on your body every workout has to be rebuilt. The human machine has a wonderful adaptive response that allows you to build it back stronger, faster, and better than it was before...this is the whole reason for working out in the first place. With that said, the harder you work out, the more protein you need to rebuild what you've broken down. Hence, my SOP is a 40/40/20 ratio. 40% protein, 40% carbs, and 20% fats. Most of the guys that are pure endurance athletes will say "HOLY SH*T that's a lot of protein!". And they'd be right. Think for a second just how much you workout to get ready for BUD/S. Most everyone here is working out at LEAST once a day. I, personally, workout twice a day...every day. I know some guys doing even more than that. If you're working this hard, believe me, you NEED that protein. Note also that amount of fat. It's VERY important that you get your fats...BUT, make sure they're GOOD fats. EFAs...essential fatty acids. Look for a good cross section of Omega EFAs...Omega 3, 6 and 9. Flaxseed oil...fish oil...make sure you're getting your fats. They do everything from metabolism support to joint support to immune system support. This isn't the '80s....good fats are good for you!

So...with all that laid out we can now talk about the post workout meal. Let me start by asking a question. What's THE most important meal of the day? Well, those of my generation had it pounded into our head that Breakfast is the most important meal of the day. And, in ordinary circumstances, they'd be right. BUT, in a training situation THE most important meal you eat every day is the post-workout meal. First let's talk about the timing. If you're working out with even moderate intensity (and I should hope you're all working out higher than that) the body enters a very interesting state immediately following a workout. The state is call "super-absorption". Your body recognizes that it just spent a crap-ton of glycogen, probably did a lot of micro-trauma to muscles, tendons, and ligaments. Not to mention you probably dumped a lot of subcutaneous water. The body, being a very efficient feed-back loop, wants desperately to replace what was lost...and ASAP. So, for about 45 minutes to an hour after you complete your workout you have a "window" where the body will suck up just about everything you throw at it like a sponge. You mentioned protein synthesis...well, this time frame is the mother load of protein synthesis. Your body is now primed and ready to take the protein you give it, crunch it into amino acids, and get to work double time to rebuild what you just broke down.

Now, you CAN over do it...as you can with just about anything. But, if you're not trying to lose fat, you can load up on everything...protein, carbs, and fats....and it's like putting nitrous oxide into a race engine. Strength athletes and body builders literally LIVE for this meal every day. It's the single most important 30 minutes....some would even argue that it's more important than the training itself. But, that's a discussion for another time. You want to know how much it enough but not too much, right? Well, the average sized male that trains hard can process about 45g of protein each meal. But, this meal is special...remember that "super-absorption"? You can take in about 50% protein than normal...for an average sized male, that's about 70-75g. What about carbs? For the post workout meal ONLY, and for a person NOT looking to lose fat, you can take in about 3-4x the number of grams of protein. I.E. 225ish - 275ish. Also, make sure you get about 10-15g of GOOD fats. All this makes for one helluva meal...and hence I HIGHLY recommend a protein/carb performance drink of some kind. There are several really solid choices on the market. Quality is really only limited by the size of your pocket book. If you guys want my specific recommendations shoot me an email and we can talk about it there. It's probably not appropriate to give product recommendations on the site here. Although, maybe we can talk Rsctt and SS into carrying some??? *idea* I spend about $600/month on supplements. I sure would feel a lot better about that bill if I knew some of it was going back into the community I love.

Anyway...sorry about the length of the post. But, there were several topics that I had to hit to give you a good answer. I hope that covers everything. If you have any additional questions...just let me know.

V