Supplements

[ponderjm]

Anyone heard of M1 BOL? My friend, not going to buds, told me about it and said it gave him endurance and he felt alot more power during pullups, it really improved his running. I was thinking about trying it out and wanted to know if it was safe or recommended.

[scskowron]

I really doubt anyone would recommend it.

Most guys won't recommend anything except a multivitamin and some protein, at the most.

[Illmaxic]

oh boy. who needs supplements???? it's called hard work pal. there are no shortcuts in BUD/S!

[asumtnrbb]

coming from a stint in the bodybuilding world i don't have too many friends even venturing into the areas of M1-BOL and the like. M1-BOL is basically just a creatine/arginine complex with a few other added ingredients that tries to amp up your anabolic state during and after workouts. from what i've learned through experience and trying out many different supplements, if you can't pronounce what's in it, then you probably shouldnt take it. stick to protein and a good vitamin. and if you do have problems recovering after workouts...i've had good experiences with a BCAA supplement as well as a glutamine supplement to help replace the amino acids used during workouts and muscle building.

if youve got supplement questions, ive got the answers...

HOOYAH

[bigv123]

The topic of supplements is always a bit touchy. So, I'll go on the record here and let my stance be known. I think supplements are fantastic tools. They are NOT replacements...but, unfortunately they gets used in that manner much too frequently. Proper supplement use will allow you to trainer harder, faster, and more frequently than you could otherwise. This leads to improved efficiency and faster progress in all areas.

There's a segment of our population that is lazy. They want to have the great looking body, but, they don't want to pay the price for it...so, they load up on supplements and workout half-heartedly with the idea in the back of their heads "the great supplements I'm taking will make up for my lack of effort". I hate to say it, but, I've seen it happen more times than I can count. Hell, I've even dated a few girls like this over the years. "Let me take some 'diet pills' and not work out at all. That will work won't it?". *BZZZZZ* Wrong answer. No, that won't actually work. Half the effort does NOT yield half the results. This isn't a 1::1 linear relationship. Hell, I don't think that 75% effort will yield 50% of the results. It just doesn't work that way.

Supplements can do some amazing things guys. I know, I've seen it over the year in my own body, those I've trained, and friends and colleagues. The empirical and scientific evidence is beyond overwhelming. But, you don't NEED them to reach your goals. They're NOT mandatory. They'll help. They'll assist. But, in the end it really is ALL about you and your effort. The supplements just make slightly more efficient use of that effort...nothing more.

V

[asumtnrbb]

Amen to that bigv..

Ive got alot of friends that swear by supplements in order to make up for their inconsistecies in the gym. I've been 'supplement clean' for a year now with the exception of my basic amino acids and glutamine. I've found that starting with the WOD and Crossfit routine has definitely made me rethink my nutritional discipline, and supplements arent there. A good protein shake and a vitamin and Im good to go. Feed your body what it makes for itself and what it needs to grow and you'll be fine.

Keep this thread open, people need to know...

HOOYAH

[bigv123]

Well, if you're hitting a protein shake and a vitamin, I hate to break this to you...but, you ARE supplementing. Perhaps the discussion would be more constructing if we moved away from the philosophical good/bad discussion about supplements and moved to more of a "what is a supplement?" discussion.

V

[rsctt83]

I am not very knowledgable about supplements but I thought I might share some simple things that have really worked for me. I tend to really hammer myself in training on a regular basis and this has made a big difference to me. In the morning I hit Jamba Juice for all fruit version smoothie and get their vitimin boost. I also order a two ounce wheatgrass. taste yucky but after a few weeks you can really feel the difference. Ever since I have been doing this I have noticed that I have not gotten sick very often and when I do it's not as severe as others.

The other thing I try and do although I am not great at it is to choose and eat foods without labels. I still succomb to temptations of ice cream and pizza once in a while. I am at a very intense level of training and this eating strategy seems to be working well for me.

BIGV ........ thanks for the heads up about balancing off leg work with hamstrings. I have been hitting it hard and have managed to regain most of the strength in hamstrings and I have noticed difference on runs, Without your advice I was headed down injury road. THANKS

[scskowron]

What do you mean eat foods without labels?

[rsctt83]

My bad, I should have explained ..... foods that do not have labels are natural foods with no additives like fruits and vegtables. Than I would go with other foods like whole wheat bread versus white bread. I gauge what I choose by the ingrediants, by way of example if you look at the ingrediants on a twinkie it would take a PHD in chemistry to figure out what is inside the twinkie. The other factor is shelf life twinkies are good for years whereas better foods will not last nearly as long. I take natural ingrediants over processed stuff whenever possible.

Hope this makes sense

[asumtnrbb]

big v...

let me re-establish my point in this matter. im ingesting what my body needs to recover and refuel. i am not and do not support the use of any anabolic agent to aid in muscle development. i understand that my use of protein and amino acids might be almost over the line from what i said earlier but i feel that since my body produces and uses these same compounds naturally, that it is allowable for me to take them. im sure you get my point regarding the other supplements, sorry to mislead anyone. not to make excuses but its hard to eat right when ive got class 7 hours a day and practice to fill up otherwise. but hey youre right, i could get more 'real' food. amen brother.

G

[king henry viii]

big v...

let me re-establish my point in this matter. im ingesting what my body needs to recover and refuel. i am not and do not support the use of any anabolic agent to aid in muscle development. i understand that my use of protein and amino acids might be almost over the line from what i said earlier but i feel that since my body produces and uses these same compounds naturally, that it is allowable for me to take them. im sure you get my point regarding the other supplements, sorry to mislead anyone. not to make excuses but its hard to eat right when ive got class 7 hours a day and practice to fill up otherwise. but hey youre right, i could get more 'real' food. amen brother.

G

class 7 hours a day? jesus man, you need to plan your schedule out better. break that **** up so you can train and eat. that's what most important.

[scskowron]

Is 7 hours a day an exaggeration or what? At my school that'd be like 35 credits per semester, pretty much double what everyone else takes.

[asumtnrbb]

well i include group meetings and the like involved with class..only like 4 hours of class a day monday-thursday...if it was 7 hours of class and then practice, i think i wouldnt be here...

props to bigv for correcting me though, he's right.

season is coming up so i should have a little more time on my hands during off days to get my training in. but im still up every morning at 6 for the WOD. but i'd definitely like to have some more time on my hands to train and eat the way i should be, but i get it done with what im given i suppose.

oh yea by the way...organic milk is the way to go...its like liquid gold, and it costs about the same too..

hope everyone is doing well.

hooyah

[bigv123]

G,
I hope you don't think I was picking on you, but, that was the exact example I was hoping someone would post so I can make my point. Forgive me for using you as an example. :)

The point I'd like to make to you gentlemen today is...What exactly IS a supplement? Once we determine the answer to that question we can then ask, What supplements are OK, and which ones should I avoid...and perhaps more importantly, Why?

So...what exactly IS a supplement? Wiki defines a dietary supplement as: "a preparation intended to supply nutrients, (such as vitamins, minerals, fatty acids or amino acids) that are missing or not consumed in sufficient quantity in a person's diet." Because of legal issues, most countries have to define supplements as either "food" or "drugs". Now, as I think most of us live and work in the US...the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act of 1994 here in the states defined a "supplement" as: "a product that is intended to supplement the diet and contains any of the following dietary ingredients:
* a vitamin
* a mineral
* an herb or other botanical (excluding tobacco)
* an amino acid
* a dietary substance for use by people to supplement the diet by increasing the total dietary intake, or
* a concentrate, metabolite, constituent, extract, or combination of any of the above

So let's distill all this legal jargon down to ground level. According to the US government, a supplement is:

1) any vitamin or mineral
2) herbs
3) amino acids (read: protein)
4) any substance you add to your diet that has calories
5) any thing you can chemically pull out of the things already listed

If you read between the lines a little bit, this net is pretty darn big. we've got everything from your One-A-Day multi-vitamin all the way to Dianabol and Stanozolol (hard steroids). Obviously, here in the US the vast majority of our society draws a line somewhere between what are acceptable supplements and what aren't.

So, how do individuals make that distinction?? Earlier, asumtnrbb, stated that because his body naturally produced a substance and use it naturally is was ok. The direct quote is:
but i feel that since my body produces and uses these same compounds naturally, that it is allowable for me to take them.
Most people would tend to agree with this statement. It would allow things like protein powders and vitamins and minerals of course. And, it would obviously exclude things like steroids. But, what esle would that definition include? Well, most certainly it would allow creatine right? Creatine is found naturally in all red meats. If we consume something naturally, is it therefore ok to process and concentrate it for use? Reasonably, most folsk would still probably agree to this. Ok then, what about insulin? The body produces this naturally. Would it be ok for a non-diabetic to take insulin? You might be surprised to find that insulin is widely considered to be THE most anabolic substance known to man. Please, please don't now equate the word "anabolic" with illegal steroids. There a TONS of substances out there that are anabolic in their activity and not illegal nor steroids. But, back to the point at hand. Some of you are probably wavering a bit on the insulin issue, right? Let's go a step further. What about HGH? Growth Hormone is found in the body naturally. It's not a steroid of any kind. It's real benefit is speeding up the recovery of damaged cells. There's nothing sinister about that, right? Hell, people are taking the stuff to increase the quality of their life and longevity. So, very much UNlike steroids, people are actually taking this as a LONG TERM aid to their health rather than a short term performance boost. Yet, HGH is starting to find its way into that same niche with all the other steroids. How about testosterone? The human body produces this naturally...both males and females. Some of you are probably aware that almost all steroids are synthetic forms of testosterone, slightly altered. We're not talking about those. We're talking about real, honest-to-God testosterone. Is it ok to take this? If not, why?

I would imagine that pretty much everyone here balks when we get to talk about testosterone. It might surprise you guys that in the real of what the public calls "anabolic steroids", testosterone is perhaps THE harshest with the strongest and worst side effects. It's also the one that yields the most benefits. You'll find this to be a recurring theme among supplements, steroid or otherwise. Generally speaking, the more benefit a supplement gives you, more damage it can cause as well. Most of the synthetically produced steroids are in fact scientific attempts to produce a substance to mimic the "good" effects of testosterone and limit as much as possible the "bad" effects. Hence, what we call "steroids" are actually considerably safer than supplementing testosterone...which the body produces every single day.

Obviously, at this point we can't honestly say that anything the body produces and uses naturally is fair game. Sorry to pick on you here asumtnrbb. So, where IS the line drawn? Some folks would agree that the line is drawn at any supplement that has negative side effects. Obviously, we would be able to lump all the steroids in that category. Their negative side effects are well documented. But, what else would fall into that category now as well? Prohormones certainly fall into that group. And, prohormones were completely legal over the counter until 2004 here in the US. These were plant extracts mostly. But, there are some negative side effects seen in using them, even in correct and proper dosages. Creatine would have to go on that list. Studies have shown that without proper hydration, creatine supplementation will increase your risk of cramps. Hell, if we start to venture into the realm of what can possibly have a negative side effect IF you take it incorrectly, we'd have to include every multi-vitamin on the market and any supplement that has protein or sugar in it as well. You guys see my point here? Just because something CAN have a negative effect when you take it wrong, doesn't mean that it's a bad supplement. It just means if you're going to take it, make sure you know wtf you're doing. In a similar vein...most of you wouldn't go to a swimming pool and train for the 50 yard underwater swim. Yet, some do...and some folks get hurt, due mainly to their own stupidity.

Well, if you've made it this far into my rant today I will now "reward" you with the point I've been driving too all this time. How we as a public and more specifically as individuals view supplementation is, in my humble opinion, a very irrational decision making process. People listen to news reporters, members of the media, who have not one iota of a clue about these things and just swallow whatever they hear wholesale. Public perception with this, like many other topics, tends to get defined in and around the media. My point is that we need to take an objective, open, and realistic look at supplementation. Certainly, some things that fall into this category are SO dangerous that they should only be used under a physicians care. But, does anyone here think they should be viewed the same was a heroin? I seriously doubt any reasonable person would think that...and yet that's exactly how our government has labeled some of them. Other supplements, such as Creatine, are now getting a strong backlash of resentment from the uninformed public? Why? Creatine is a fantastic product that's been shown in more studies than i can count to be a wonderful aid to active individuals with very little chance of ANY negative effect when taken properly. If this trend continues, we'll start to see the same backlash against protein powders. Added dietary protein helps recovery right? Just like HGH! Argh! Outlaw protein powders now!!! (/sarcasm)

Let people, with the aid of their personal physicians decide how to run their own lives please. The government is trying to protect stupid people from themselves...and harming those among us who aren't stupid. NEWS FLASH: stupid people are going to find a way to be stupid regardless of your best intention(s) to save them from themselves. Britney Spears. That meth dealer down at the local trailer park. People talking on their cell phones doing 85 on the highway. Stupid people are always part of the equation. You can't regulate away the actions of a few stupid folks. Even after you pass a hundred laws, dumb people will still do dumb things.

Some supplements need to be controlled. There's no doubt of that. But, let's not attach a negative connotation with everything that falls into the bucket of "supplements". It's getting to the point of being asinine. I see people railing against others that choose to use a protein powder every day. Are you serious?!?!? What's your rationale for thinking, in ANY way, that this is remotely a bad thing??? Is it just jealousy that you can't afford the good supplements where someone else can? Is it ignorance in that you just don't understand what the product is? Do you REALLY care if it enhances performance, or is that just a transparent ruse to hide your real apprehension? I don't know why more an more people are hostile, sometimes violently, about the use of practically harmless supplements like creatine and protein powders. Hopefully, my long-winded soap-box preaching today has opened a few eyes and caused a few folks here to ask some tough, honest questions about why we view things a certain way. I don't work for a supplement company...hell, I don't even work in the field of exercise, medicine or physical performance. I'm just an interested citizen who thinks that ignorance should be stomped out wherever we find it and whenever possible. Perhaps I did a little of that today...

V

[asumtnrbb]

V...

if i ever do a paper on supplementation i might have to use this chapter of your book for a source...absolutely great information. i've forwarded this to my nutrition expert in Charlotte, NC and he has already posted the whole article in the gym and his store.

i agree 100% with everything said. knowledge like this is very hard to come by.

i hope that everyone can learn from this and use it as a resource in their decision making process regarding nutrition and supplementation.

Edit: V, adding to the inquiry about 'natural' supplementation regarding protein and the like, i can only take what the NCAA will let me. Routine drug tests keep us pretty clean around here so its understandable i suppose. but once again thanks for your input, its very much appreciated.

G

[dakota440sixpack]

oh yea by the way...organic milk is the way to go...its like liquid gold, and it costs about the same too..

Why do you think that organic milk is better than conventional milk?

[bigv123]

Being an athlete whether that be pro of collegiate presents a whole new set of issues to deal with. Their restrictions are extensive...and punishment is HARSH. Trying to skirt the system is always a bad idea in life, and even worse here.

The big problem that competing athletes have with supplements is trust. There have been more cases that I can count where a supplement was found to have ingredients not on the label...banned or illegal ingredients. Those of you older guys who were active in the late '80 might recall a supplement called "Hot Stuff". People were buying this stuff faster than they could make it. It was THE rage. And for good reason. The FDA did some tests on random lots and found that the product actually contained small amounts of steroids. Yea, no wonder it worked so well!

For folks that have some governing agency testing their blood and/or urine on a regular basis, you just can't afford to take the risk of using a supplement not on the "trusted" list. But, I would contend that a lot of the supplements listed by a lot of these organizations shouldn't be on the banned list to begin with. I think we've gotten over-zealous in our prosecution of the supplement market.

V

[bigv123]

Milk hasn't been a part of my diet in any way for over a decade now. So, to be honest I don't know much, if anything, about the advantages/disadvantages of organic milk over regular milk.

I DO know that the IGF-1 that's produced in cows that have been given shots of rBGH (recombinant bovine growth hormone) to stimulate milk production has the same chemical structure as human IGF-1...and that it survives the pasteurization process. These rBGH injections lead to an increased incidence of utter infections. These are fought off with antibiotics of course. Well, the infectious white blood cells and the antibiotics also survive the pasteurization process.

Organic Milk, by its definition doesn't use rBGH injections...which is great. But, they also don't pasteurize the milk as I understand it. Thus, a particular type of bacteria that happens to produce lactic acid doesn't get killed off. Frankly, the more I read about milk, the less and less I want to put it in my body.

In terms of ads/disads for use as a good protein/carb/fat source...I can't help ya, sorry.

V

[asumtnrbb]

i knew v would make it in here at some point... and he nailed the compound i was thinking of. IGF-1 or insulin-like growth factor is a naturally produced part of cows milk as well as colostrum i believe. both of these substances i believe are also found in breast milk (i know colostrum for sure) but they both ASSIST in the development of the body at a young age and we do not require them as much when we age.

bigv i couldnt survive without milk, idk i think its being from the south or somethin..hooyah

G

[bigv123]

BIGV ........ thanks for the heads up about balancing off leg work with hamstrings. I have been hitting it hard and have managed to regain most of the strength in hamstrings and I have noticed difference on runs, Without your advice I was headed down injury road. THANKS

Absolutely, 100% my pleasure. It's the VERY least I could do for you who have given all of us here such a warehouse of great information AND access to a host of BTDT guys. Believe me, I'm still hugely indebted to you, SS and all the other guys running the site.

Thank YOU,
V

[dakota440sixpack]

There has been a lot of incorrect information posted here about milk. First on the topic of organic milk vs. conventional milk; there is NO difference what whatsoever between the chemical composition of organic milk and conventional milk. Anyone who tells you different either doesn’t know any better or they are lying. The difference between the two has to do with how they are produced. Milk being sold as organic has to come from cows that are fed organic feed. This feed cannot be grown with conventional fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides, etc. Also the cows cannot be given antibiotics or many other conventional pharmaceuticals when they are sick. However, it does not change the chemical composition of the milk they give. The only real reason to choose organic milk over conventional milk is if you prefer these types of management practices. This is the reason organic milk costs so much more, because this type of management is much less efficient, driving up the cost of the product.

Secondly, all milk from any cow has IGF-1 in it, as well as BST (bovine somatotropin or growth hormone), and many other hormones. Hormones are produced naturally in all animals AND PLANTS therefore they are in the food we eat everyday. Giving injections of rBST DOES NOT change the chemical composition of milk. You can use any test in any lab in the U.S. and not find any significant difference between milk from a cow treated with rBST and one that is not. In addition, rBST does not lead to mastitis (udder infections); this is simply untrue. I don’t think any dairy farmers would use rBST if this was true. Sometimes cows do get mastitis though, and when they do they are treated with antibiotics (in conventional management). However, ABSOLUTELY NO MILK CONTAINING ANTIBIOTICS ARE SOLD. Once a cow is treated with antibiotics (for mastitis or otherwise) her milk will be kept separate from the rest of the herd’s milk and dumped away, until the required withdrawal time is met. If only one cow’s milk treated with antibiotics gets into the bulk tank the entire tank must be dumped. I have personally seen this happen several times. Milk is tested up to 17 times from the time it leaves the cow to the time it reaches the store!

Finally, all milk sold through commercial stores MUST be pasteurized, even organic. The only way to get unpasteurized milk is to get it directly from the dairy farmer. This is not a very safe practice.

I hope I cleared up some questions you might have had about milk. If you have any more questions just send me a message, if I don’t know I will find out for you. In case you were wondering I was born and raised on a dairy farm in PA. I received my B.S. from Penn State in Animal Science in 2006 and I am currently in my second year of my Ph.D. program in Dairy Cattle Nutrition.

Thanks,

dakota

[asumtnrbb]

well why didnt you say so dakota?...

im just gonna stop talking for awhile. props to you for the correct facts, i cant i cant trust a army airborne strength coach for nutrition facts.. oh well