Going to Bootcamp with injury

[borus96]

What does everyone think of shipping off with a injury or something that "you know isn't right" I have this pain in my shoulder. If anyone that reads this does Crossfit I can help you get a visual of the actions that hurt my shoulder. Shoulder presses for one hurt. Going up doesn't hurt its the resistance of bringing the weight back down that hurts. Wall ball shots hurt (if you dont do crossfit its where you throw a weight ball from the squat position up about 10 - 12 feet to a square on the wall and catch it and go back down) again it's the resistance of catching the ball. It's weird it doesn't hurt at all doing pull ups and I feel it slighty doing pushups.

It's been a while since I have posted a topic, so I have tried to help out on others questions as much as possible, but it's about a month until I ship and I have had this minor ache in my shoulder for a while (a little over a month I think). So I'm considering if I should hold off and wait till I'm 100% before I ship. I told my recruiter "I have a pain in my shoulder and if it isn't fine a week before I leave then I'm going to move my shipping date until it is." He didn't find that very pleasant, granted my recruiter has been pretty fair. He just brushed it off as "ah dont worry you'll be fine."

My mentor thinks I should get a deep tissue message. Any other suggestions and does anything think this will help?

I'm just worried that this will become a huge performance hamper. And is there any medical help through this new BUD/s prep thing and Indoc? Like if you tell them "my shoulder does not feel right" will they help you try to figure it out? I'm just concerned about getting injured.

[snow85]

borus, you already are injured. only you can make the decision to go injured. what are you looking for here?

should you ship?

how to fix it?

what happens if you show up with an injury?

answers to all the above?

[borus96]

borus, you already are injured. only you can make the decision to go injured. what are you looking for here?

should you ship?

how to fix it?

what happens if you show up with an injury?

answers to all the above?

yea all of the above pretty much. What happens if I show up and they have me doing 200 dips (which it hurts when I get down low) will be just kick my pathetic *** out? Will they just keep pushing me until I tear a rotator cuff or something? Do they even help you get over injury? or will they just push me till I break? Knowing ill end up injured. And most likely rolled.

[snow85]

it's hard for anyone to tell you what they'll do @ great lakes-- med stuff is case-by-case. i wouldn't even try to go to indoc with a sore shoulder, if i were you.

in the interim, go see a sports med doc for a diagnosis. you don't have very long. if it's muscular, (and sometimes with bone, too), they might be able to do a deep tissue ultrasound treatment on you. a few of those usually help clear up tissue injuries, but again-- you have to have a doc send you out for that. could be something worse, or something not as bad, but there's no information here for anyone to be able to tell.

[borus96]

yea that sounds ideal

[snow85]

you have so, so many places to up there, too. if not your high school trainer, head to the UNT training room for a recommendation. (call them first-- they're bound to be SUPER busy making the football-basketball transition in addition to all the other sports they have going.)

[borus96]

I'm going to speak with one of my doctors that works in my office. And ask him what he thinks I should do.

[MeatHead08]

It sounds like you might have a bit of rotator cuff tendonitis. Shoulder injuries are very tricky and can take time to heal properly (especially if you can't stop training). I had tendonitis before and never could bring myself to stop training, so it took a long time to heal. I did get a corticosteriod shot to help with the inflammation which helped a lot but once it wore off, the pain came back.

Ease up on training and alter your workouts to avoid the movements that hurt; for example, if dips hurt, then do cable pushdowns or skullcrushers to hit your tri's. Also, see a doctor to get a proper diagnosis.

But to answer your original question, I would not ship out with an injury. You might make it through boot alright but once you are in BUD/S, it will only get worse to the point that you might get rolled or dropped. You have an overuse injury and higher intensity training will not help it at all.

[snow85]

meathead-- nothing he's said can logically lead you to that diagnosis. nothing. the shoulder is an extremely loose (unstable), complex joint, and he hasn't even identified where it hurts.

borus-- don't assume anything, especially if you have ready access to a doctor who knows what they're talking about. (ie, a gastro probably won't be much help, nor will a cardiac, you see?)

[borus96]

I wish I knew what tendonitis or however you spell it felt like. I am def going to get a doc at my office to look at it. It's just I'm becoming miserable cause I haven't worked out in a while.

[snow85]

irritable, eh? tendonitis feels differently in different places of your body. get to a doc, then.

[Jen_MV]

I wish I knew what tendonitis or however you spell it felt like. I am def going to get a doc at my office to look at it. It's just I'm becoming miserable cause I haven't worked out in a while.

Borus, do you have a doctor? You can either go to a GP (general practitioner) who will refer you to a specialist or go to a specialist directly. It will depend on your insurance (unfortunately). Your insurance may restrict you to their in network MDs. My guy is a physician and an exec for Presbyterian Hospital of Dallas. They also have a hospital in Plano. Let me know if you need to find an excellent doctor.

[snow85]

jen-- he doesn't necessarily need a specialist. you don't automatically hit up an ENT for an earache or a cold, or an ortho for a sprained ankle. that can be a waste of money if it's more care than what he needs.

NOT automatically referring to a specialist (regardless of insurance coverage, ALL of which cover it in one way or another), knowing when to and when not to, and being able to ascertain the difference, is being responsible about medical treatment.

borus, if you're comfortable with your guys and trust their judgment, go to them first. 1. it'll be free. 2. they'll tell you if you need specialized care.

i still say go to a sports med guy-- they're more familiar with the physical activities that you're doing and the routine and nonroutine injuries that thos activities can cause. a GP/DO, etc. won't necessarily know that. don't ever assume that "Dr." means "all-knowing." it doesn't.

[MeatHead08]

meathead-- nothing he's said can logically lead you to that diagnosis. nothing. the shoulder is an extremely loose (unstable), complex joint, and he hasn't even identified where it hurts.

I said...
It sounds like you might have a bit of rotator cuff tendonitis.

Because I had it before and I felt the exact same way he is describing (ie, what movements make it hurt) and because of the nature of our training, improper form or just purely overuse can likely lead to tendonitis. But that may very well not be the case, hence the "might" and why I also said...

see a doctor to get a proper diagnosis

[snow85]

thanks for the repost, meat head.

[Jen_MV]

jen-- he doesn't necessarily need a specialist. you don't automatically hit up an ENT for an earache or a cold, or an ortho for a sprained ankle.

NOT automatically referring to a specialist (regardless of insurance coverage, ALL of which cover it in one way or another), knowing when to and when not to, and being able to ascertain the difference, is being responsible about medical treatment.

borus, if you're comfortable with your guys and trust their judgment, go to them first. 1. it'll be free. 2. they'll tell you if you need specialized care.

i still say go to a sports med guy-- they're more familiar with the physical activities that you're doing and the routine and nonroutine injuries that thos activities can cause. a GP/DO, etc. won't necessarily know that. don't ever assume that "Dr." means "all-knowing." it doesn't.

Snow, it's not clear from his post what kind of physician he is going to. It sounds like he is going to a friend from work. He could be a Dermatologist for all we know! LOL

I'm just outlining the protocol of how physicians work. Just like Meathead said, he needs to be examined by a physician, usually a general practitioner. Anyone here who has a medical background is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong.

When you say sports med guy, what exactly do you mean? Do you mean a Sports medicine doctor? I thought that one can have access to their service only if they belong to a sports team. As an athletic trainer, you know more about this than I do.

If Borus doesn't belong to a sports team, he still needs to take the normal way of seeing a physician and that is through a GP (also sometimes called Internal Medicine). It is up to the GP if she/he feels he needs to see a specialist. He will need a referral from the GP to see a specialist/sports medicine doctor.

I have to tell you, though, I have connections with many physicians and I have bypassed the GP and went directly to a specialist. Saved me time and money, in my opinion. . . . but that's just me.

[snow85]

no, jen, he doesn't NEED to be examined by a physician.

i've already given options on the "sports medicine guy" in this thread.

there are clearly more viable options availble to him than going to a random gp/internist/do/etc. see my 1 and 2 above.

i, personally, bypass all protocols for seeing my ortho, but so what?

you never refer someone directly to a specialist, off of a website, for something like this. you don't know. just like you don't know about sports medicine, doctors don't know about things that they no longer practice or never practiced to begin with. it could be super-minor, and he's just irritated it by not resting it. he could have slept funny and have a slight nerve impingement. it could be that his dog jumped on him and bruised him, or he lifted something heavy and just needs to rest. or maybe he's growing again. no one knows based on the information that he's given, especially not people who are not trained in what to look for. did notice how, even i with my training, did NOT play "what if?" with him? there's a reason for that. i take my education seriously and use it responsibly.

[Jen_MV]

Snow, you lost me. Let's recap. This is what you wrote. . . .


irritable, eh? tendonitis feels differently in different places of your body. get to a doc, then.

borus, if you're comfortable with your guys and trust their judgment, go to them first. 1. it'll be free. 2. they'll tell you if you need specialized care.

i still say go to a sports med guy

no, jen, he doesn't NEED to be examined by a physician.

i've already given options on the "sports medicine guy" in this thread.

there are clearly more viable options availble to him than going to a random gp/internist/do/etc. see my 1 and 2 above.


Huh? I can no longer respond to someone who is not making any sense. This is my last post in this thread.

Borus, if you need help finding a physician, I'll be glad to help. Just PM me. I wrote what I know as a registered nurse, I have nothing else to contribute.

As an aside: I find it amusing, Snow, that you are implying I'm being irresponsible for referring a person with a medical problem to a Medical Doctor. . . . that's pretty funny! LOL :D

[borus96]

I dont have insurance. My work put me as temporary and decided to not give me benefits once they found out I was leaving. That is why I'm having a doctor who works in my building to look at it for free for now.

[borus96]

lol snow Im twenty five I hardly think im growing again :D but thanks for the compliment. hehe

[snow85]

actually, jen, whenever i write things that you don't understand, you laugh them off as amusing-- when it's obvious that you don't understand. that's telling.

it's not funny that as a specialized nurse, fully knowing that not every nosebleed or split knuckle requires medical attention, you send people off to the doctor. that's the problem. you're making a referral that might not be necessary, at levels that at this point, on this information, are not necessary. unnecessary medical expenses are skyrocketing-- ask any attorney. things like this are the reasons why. last time your legs were sore from running, did you immediately go see a gp, and when you were there, did you ask to be referred to a specialist? i'll bet not. simlilar to prescribing an mri or bone scan when all that is needed is an x-ray. i didn't say that YOU were being irresponsible, but it's interesting that you took it that way. i said that _I_ was going to be responsible with what i know.

btw, NEED = uncontrollable bleeding, distended stomach, gsw, heart attack, neurological disorders, skyrocketing/plummeting bp, etc. a sore shoulder isn't a need-- you get that right, nurse? do they teach you in nursing school what a medical need is? where's the quote where i mentioned the trainer? selectively picking and choosing and taking out of context, eh? impressive. further proof that you aren't understanding what's being written. you're not even following.

borus,

i'm surprised that with her vast medical knowledge, jen didn't jump in and tell you that your bones won't stop growing until you're about 30. at that point, they'll be at their peak mass and strength. as far as bone length, however, males don't stop growing until their early-mid 20s. women stop in their late teens, early 20s. if you've put on any weight in the past year, at all, you can be stressing your joints. it's normal, but you can run into problems now and again.

i still maintain what i said about your free docs, and if you don't want to discuss this with people you work with, go to the trainers @ unt. they have a good program, and will probably agree to see you free of charge, once you tell them what you're doing. of course, only an athlete would know something about who the trainer does and doesn't see, so whatever you do, don't take my word for it.

[SeaSpectre]

Ok----If there is a pain issue, and it is alarming, see a physician. Jen is a nurse and just might know what she is talking about here. Snow---I realize your a fitness freak, but you need to quit trying to be the expert on all things training. You are so far off base. If a man has an injury, it needs to be addressed. Let the people who have a clue do the talking. See my post "if you don't know what your talking about".

Spectre out

[snow85]

sea-- all due respect to you as a moderator, but the one who is off base here, is you. i don't tell you how to do your job, and until you're trained in assessing, evaluating, and treating injuries, don't tell me how to do mine. your assumption that a NICU nurse knows all about sports medicine is erroneous. that's like saying that a cook in the navy knows all about NSW because he's in the navy. it doesn't work that way.

[lisalynne10]

It sounds like you might have a bit of rotator cuff tendonitis. Shoulder injuries are very tricky and can take time to heal properly (especially if you can't stop training). I had tendonitis before and never could bring myself to stop training, so it took a long time to heal. I did get a corticosteriod shot to help with the inflammation which helped a lot but once it wore off, the pain came back.



I too just battled rotator cuff tendonitis within the last year and a half. Went to GP who is really into athletics, etc...he referred me to his sports doc. Off I go to the sports doc...put me on a myriad of PT....for me it didn't do crap! So, I made the decision to try eastern medicine.....BINGO!! Ancient Chinese secret!! LOL... After a couple months of treatment I'm back to normal. All that's left is to get back the strength that I lost from it.

ps: forgot to say that in the beginning I tried the shot too......at first it was like a miracle!! But, after a short time the effects wore off and I was right back to where I started. Don't do the cortisone shots!!! IMHO.

[snow85]

as an aside-- i've heard good things about eastern medicine, of course, depending on what you're doing. for any kid looking to go into the military, you probably shouldn't be ingesting herbal concotions, and diagnoses and treatments might not be recognized by the military, but... i have heard good things.

i've had tendonitis, it blows, but mine was developed in, and cured by, pt. (which is normal for what i had.)

lisa, a question for you: if you had another similar injury that required medical attention, would you personally, go to eastern medicine first, or not?

[lisalynne10]

as an aside-- i've heard good things about eastern medicine, of course, depending on what you're doing. for any kid looking to go into the military, you probably shouldn't be ingesting herbal concotions, and diagnoses and treatments might not be recognized by the military, but... i have heard good things.

i've had tendonitis, it blows, but mine was developed in, and cured by, pt. (which is normal for what i had.)

lisa, a question for you: if you had another similar injury that required medical attention, would you personally, go to eastern medicine first, or not?

Not once did I ever take any herbal crap, not one time (of course I'm very, very, very selective about what goes into my body). A similar injury? Yes, I would. I found it simply amazing at what the first treatment did for me, it didn't "cure" me, but I found relief. I didn't stop there, but continued follow-ups.

[snow85]

i'm not suggesting that you took anything, but you never know what you're going to get when you see a non-western medicine practitioner. not being recognized by the ama, kids just need to know that they need to be careful if they go and are told to take something.

is your tendonitis completely gone? have you returned to the activity that caused it, at the same frequency, pain free, no need to go back?

[lisalynne10]

i'm not suggesting that you took anything, but you never know what you're going to get when you see a non-western medicine practitioner. not being recognized by the ama, kids just need to know that they need to be careful if they go and are told to take something.

is your tendonitis completely gone? have you returned to the activity that caused it, at the same frequency, pain free, no need to go back?

Yep!! Completely gone...I've gone back to lifting, playing, etc.....if I ever feel an inkling I'd most certainly go back!

[snow85]

good to hear-- that stuff is awful, glad you were able to resolve the problem!

[Jen_MV]

Ok----If there is a pain issue, and it is alarming, see a physician. Jen is a nurse and just might know what she is talking about here. Snow---I realize your a fitness freak, but you need to quit trying to be the expert on all things training. You are so far off base. If a man has an injury, it needs to be addressed. Let the people who have a clue do the talking. See my post "if you don't know what your talking about".

Spectre out

Sea, only a Doctor can medically diagnose. Even if a doctor has the credentials, they certainly will not do it here online. Diagnosing online is dangerous to the person and to this website. Many companies has been sued for liability and/or neglect.

Just to make my life and your life peaceful, here in the Medical threads I'll only respond to the original poster. Otherwise, you'll see me in the members only forums. . . oh, what fun we're having!

[snow85]

i agree with jen on this, and all of my posts reflect this. they also reflect the DOL description that i posted on the other thead re: this information.


*snip*
specialize in the prevention, assessment, treatment, and rehabilitation of musculoskeletal injuries. Athletic trainers are often one of the first heath care providers on the scene when injuries occur, and therefore must be able to recognize, evaluate, and assess injuries and provide immediate care when needed. They also are heavily involved in the rehabilitation and reconditioning of injuries.

Athletic trainers often help prevent injuries by advising on the proper use of equipment and applying protective or injury-preventive devices such as tape, bandages, and braces. Injury prevention also often includes educating people on what they should do to avoid putting themselves at risk for injuries.

Athletic trainers should not be confused with fitness trainers or personal trainers, who are not health care workers, but rather train people to become physically fit.

Athletic trainers work under the supervision of a licensed physician, and in cooperation with other health care providers. The level of medical supervision varies, depending upon the setting.

jen, when you have the time, pm me the "companies that have been sued"-- that's an incredibly broad statement to be making. i'd be very interested to know what online forums have been sued, what the lawsuits allege, and what the final opinions said. please send me the case styles so that i can look them up in westlaw. if you don't have that information, you have no business making a general statement like that. btw, the user agreement of this site says this:

we are not undertaking any obligation or liability relating to any Postings or activities in any Forum.

it also says this:

12. Health Disclaimer
This Website provides fitness information and content published over the Internet and is intended only to assist users in their personal fitness efforts. NavySEALs.com is not a medical organization and our staff cannot give you medical advice or diagnosis. Nothing contained in this Website should be construed as such advice or diagnosis. The information and reports generated by us should not be interpreted as a substitute for physician consultation, evaluation, or treatment.
You are urged and advised to seek the advice of a physician before beginning any fitness effort or regimen. This Website is intended for use only by healthy adult individuals. The Website is not intended for use by minors, pregnant women, or individuals with any type of health condition. Such individuals are specifically warned to seek professional medical advice prior to initiating any form of weight loss effort or regimen.

and this....

FURTHER, PLEASE NOTE THAT NO ADVICE OR INFORMATION, OBTAINED BY YOU FROM OUR PERSONNEL OR THROUGH THIS WEBSITE SHALL CREATE ANY WARRANTY NOT EXPRESSLY PROVIDED FOR IN THESE TERMS & CONDITIONS.

and in a 4th section, this:

YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT WE AND OUR AFFILIATES SHALL NOT BE LIABLE ....

5th section:
You agree to indemnify, hold harmless and, at our option, defend NavySEALs.com and our affiliates,

anything that ANYONE says on this site, SEAL, Doctor, POTUS: NSC has it covered.

[Shar36]

Sea, only a Doctor can medically diagnose. Even if a doctor has the credentials, they certainly will not do it here online. Diagnosing online is dangerous to the person and to this website. Many companies has been sued for liability and/or neglect.

Just to make my life and your life peaceful, here in the Medical threads I'll only respond to the original poster. Otherwise, you'll see me in the members only forums. . . oh, what fun we're having!

Jen ~ Excellent post! I'm headed to the members only forums now...I need some fun today!

[SeaSpectre]

So, with that reasoning, its ok just to start offering whatever you feel like typing with complete disregard of whether it is potentially harmful to the original poster because the disclaimer covers your tail? That doesn't seem very ethical at all. It actually seems more like tooting the horn, so to speak. "Look at me!!! I am the resident expert! I'm right----your wrong..." That sort of thing. Quite frankly I haven't taken anyones side in this matter, what I have done is attempt to keep some guy from getting seriously injured because someone basically told him to tough it out vs. asking his doctor. Its ok that you have alarming pain, it will go away---perfectly natural. Gimmee a break.
Also giving diagnoses without an actual examination is just ridiculous. I have yet to see any Doctors replying, and I'm betting that if a Doctor had replied, he would have suggested that the gent go see his physician for an exam.

On that note....Spectre out.

Oh--The next person who attacks me personally or attacks my methods will be gone, period. I DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT have a personal agenda here, and will not take sides in any matter. If it seems that way sometimes, its merely coincidence.

[Shar36]

So, with that reasoning, its ok just to start offering whatever you feel like typing with complete disregard of whether it is potentially harmful to the original poster because the disclaimer covers your tail? That doesn't seem very ethical at all. It actually seems more like tooting the horn, so to speak. "Look at me!!! I am the resident expert! I'm right----your wrong..." That sort of thing. Quite frankly I haven't taken anyones side in this matter, what I have done is attempt to keep some guy from getting seriously injured because someone basically told him to tough it out vs. asking his doctor. Its ok that you have alarming pain, it will go away---perfectly natural. Gimmee a break.
Also giving diagnoses without an actual examination is just ridiculous. I have yet to see any Doctors replying, and I'm betting that if a Doctor had replied, he would have suggested that the gent go see his physician for an exam.

On that note....Spectre out.

Oh--The next person who attacks me personally or attacks my methods will be gone, period. I DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT have a personal agenda here, and will not take sides in any matter. If it seems that way sometimes, its merely coincidence.


HOOYAH!!!

'NOUGH SAID

[snow85]

So, with that reasoning, its ok just to start offering whatever you feel like typing with complete disregard of whether it is potentially harmful to the original poster because the disclaimer covers your tail? That doesn't seem very ethical at all. It actually seems more like tooting the horn, so to speak. "Look at me!!! I am the resident expert! I'm right----your wrong..." That sort of thing. Quite frankly I haven't taken anyones side in this matter, what I have done is attempt to keep some guy from getting seriously injured because someone basically told him to tough it out vs. asking his doctor. Its ok that you have alarming pain, it will go away---perfectly natural. Gimmee a break.
Also giving diagnoses without an actual examination is just ridiculous. I have yet to see any Doctors replying, and I'm betting that if a Doctor had replied, he would have suggested that the gent go see his physician for an exam.

On that note....Spectre out.

Oh--The next person who attacks me personally or attacks my methods will be gone, period. I DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT have a personal agenda here, and will not take sides in any matter. If it seems that way sometimes, its merely coincidence.

sea-- you missed the point entirely. who's diagnosing? i'm not, and i've never said so. but if i am, trident2010 is, crod is, everyone on this site is. furthermore, it's not illegal to look at someone and say hey-- your nose hurts b/c it's bleeding, and it's bleeding 'cause you got hit with a basketball. that's not a diagnosis. (although, honest to god, i'm impressed that you spelled "diagnosis, plural" correctly.)

what i DID do, was offer a variety of possibilities. they're there to read.

further, who said "tough it out?" no one.

who said "extreme pain?" no one. you're reading words that aren't there.

how can you say what a doctor would say when you haven't worked with one? c'mon sea. go back and read every post i've written, re: medical issues. every one, before you make assumptions because someone trained in sports medicine doesn't agree with someone trained in premies on a sports thread. if you don't really understand it, that's cool.

this is one of the bibles:
principles of athletic training.
http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/0072461756/student_view0/chapter3/

chapters pertinent to this thread:

3. (right at the beginning!) legal concerns and insurance issues
4. training and conditioning techniques
9. mechanisms and characteristics of sports trauma
10. tissue response to injury
12. on-the-field acute care and emergency procedures
13. off-the-field injury evaluation
15. using therapeutic modalities (possibly)
22. the shoulder complex


if you're doubting what i'm saying, check it out yourself. there are even some quizes for you.

shar, the purpose of your post serves to do what? sniping, again? are you bored, dear?

[SeaSpectre]

Goodbye. Nice knowing you.

[snow85]

you might not like what i've said, but i haven't violated any forum rules.

you might not like that i've done this for a living, but again, those choices didn't violate the rules.

in fact, you might not like that i listed textbook chapters, but no words in the posts violated forum rules.

[snow85]

for the record, i posted my education text with the chapters applicable to this thread.

this is the bible of athletic trainers. sea didn't like, so i am therefore a "jackass". so says the moderator, who questioned my creds, when i provided them.

[Bad_Dog]

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d162/Pat_Sajac/Web/Misc/dead_phone.jpg

Can you hear me NOW??

[searles72]

All I can say is WOW.......

[SeaSpectre]

Is it just me or can I hear the crickets? Awfully quiet all of a sudden. I like it.

[Shar36]

:D http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d162/Pat_Sajac/Web/Misc/dead_phone.jpg



Can you hear me NOW??



ROTHLMFBAO!!!!!! THANKS A MILLION B_D!!!

[Shar36]

Is it just me or can I hear the crickets? Awfully quiet all of a sudden. I like it.

It just keeps getting better and better. HAPPY HOLIDAYS!!! Actual snow, the white pretty little flakes are falling from the sky here in Chi Town.

I am so love love loving it!!!!!!

:p

[Shar36]

[quote=snow85;170639]

shar, the purpose of your post serves to do what? It serves to contratulate Sea on an excellent post!


sniping, again? NO!

are you bored, dear? NOPEITY, NOPE, NOPE, NOPE!

Snow ~ banned much? ALLOW ME TO ANSWER, YESITY, YES, YES, YES!!

HOOYAH!!!

:p :D :) :cool:

SEARCH THIS.....BITE YOURSELF!!!!

[SeaSpectre]

Ok. enough is enough. borus, I hope you have gotten some kind of useful answer out of this.