have a ?

[lonestar4652]

do seals use smg's or rifle's more on mission's.

[Kinnikinik]

Well, this is the SWCC forums, but I think I can branch over a little. For the most part, Special Warfare units use the M4 Carbine which is a modified version of the M-16 rifle. The weapon has a collapsable stock, a shorter barrel (hence making it a carbine vs. a rifle) and heaftier components, including modified cooling along the stock. Special Warfare troops shoot a 5.56 mm bullet with a tungsten tip penetrator (vice the full metal jacket that regulars get). There is a full auto selector switch on the weapon, but due to decreased accuracy and increased ammo expendage, it is rarely used. It is nice to have in a pinch though.

Based on the mission, other weapons may be carried (SAW, M240, Mossberg shotgun, etc), but the base load out is the M4 and a sidearm, either a 9mm or a SOCOM .45 ACP. I prefer the .45, but some guys like that the 9mm is smaller and carries more rounds. I like that I don't have to put three rounds in each target and that if I do run out of bullets, the SOCOM can be used as a club. Not to mention I have big hands so the weapon fits me.

I hope that answers your question. For more information on these weapons, throw them in a search engine like google.

K

[asoon2be]

SOCOM .45 acp . Your talking about Heckler and Kocks MK23? That is an amazing pistol. Wouldnt the 9mm be just as affective if you put where it counts?

[derrekjm]

Special Warfare troops shoot a 5.56 mm bullet with a tungsten tip penetrator (vice the full metal jacket that regulars get).



Thats cool....

[Kinnikinik]

Yes, the H&K MK23.

The main difference between the .45 and the 9mm is in how they are meant to kill.

The 9mm is a very high velocity round with a small mass.

The .45 is a smaller velocity round with a huge mass.

Force = mass x acceleration, so the force done to the body is a combination of the size of the bullet and the amount is decellerates in the body. Both weapons may have similar force characteristics, but there is still the factor of having something much larger expanding and creating a hole in your body. (Guns generally kill through tissue trauma, not blood loss). Others may prefer the 9mm. It may just be psychological for me that I like the idea of sending a huge friggin bullet at someone as opposed to sending a little tiny one.

The other thing you may want to look at is penetration. The weapon that tranfers more of its energy to the subject has a better chance of killing them. This means that if the bullet stays in the body, it does more damage than one that goes through. I like the slower bullet because of this. Hollowpoints reduce the shoot-through of the faster calibers, so in that case a 9mm (or a .40 cal) may be better...

for more info check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_power

[asoon2be]

Thanks for explaining that for me. I really havent thought of it like that. Thats awesome stuff. I'd deffinetly take the 45. acp SOCOM over a 9mm into a firefight b/c it would do alot more damage and you could put some good mods on it. But that mag capacity on the 45 isnt too great. Its only 10 right? Also, I talked to a gundealer at a sporting shop and he said the 45.acp is more powerful than a average 45. because the acp powder is much more fine and compact or something for higher velocity. Cool link by the way.

[Kinnikinik]

The Hague Convention made it illegal to use bullets that expand or flatten easily in the body. So, hollowtip bullets are out (except in counterterrorism).

SPECWAR guys, I know some of you carry personal ammo into the field. It is possible that if you use hollowtip ammunition against members of another country, you can be tried for warcrimes. There is a very small chance of it, but be aware that the law is out there.

Personal protection and law enforcement of course are exempt from this.

For more info:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/dec99-03.htm

[lonestar4652]

man thats alot of info .thanks hey anbody here have myspace.or just wanna mail me
becuse i try to get on the chat room here but nobodys ever on.i like the m1 grand and the p226
my fav is the M4 thoe but im a better shooter with single shot.

[derrekjm]

Kinnikinik,

Just wanted to say thanks you always have good replys with lots of information and advice wee need more guys around here like you.

Lol kinda off topic but my uncle told me a guy he knew in Nam had his mom send him 12g shells in an oatmeal , oh well I always thought it was a funny story...

[asoon2be]

Hey Kinnikinik. Since we are on this subject. Doesnt California have a ban law on assault rifles or 30 rnd mags? When I'm living in Cali would I be able to bring down my m4 legally or would I have to get a class 3 liscense? To throw this out there for those interested. I talked to a SEAL couple weeks back and he said they are not using the HK mp5 as much for CQC in Iraq, now they are using the m4 with a 10.5 barrel. Amazing stuff lol.

[Kinnikinik]

Well first off I wouldn't suggest it. Any weapons you bring will have to be stored in the armory on base and you honestly aren't going to have much time to shoot. Its better to concentrate on school and not worry about bringing firearms. Your rooms are a bit sparse to say the most while you are at school.

Now, if you are moving to California you will probably want your weapons with you. Here is a link to all the info you need to know. Things aren't looking good for your M-4

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/

Specifically check out this:

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12275.htm

(e) Subdivisions (a), (b), and (c) shall not apply to the sale to, purchase by, importation of, or possession of assault weapons or a . 50 BMG rifle by the Department of Justice, police departments, sheriffs' offices, marshals' offices, the Youth and Adult Corrections Agency, the Department of the California Highway Patrol, district attorneys' offices, Department of Fish and Game, Department of Parks and Recreation, or the military or naval forces of this state or of the United States, or any federal law enforcement agency for use in the discharge of their official duties.
(f)(1) Subdivision(s) (b) and (c) shall not prohibit the possession or use of assault weapons or a . 50 BMG rifle by sworn peace officer members of those agencies specified in subdivision (e) for law enforcement purposes, whether on or off duty.
(2) Subdivisions (a), (b), and (c) shall not prohibit the delivery, transfer, or sale of an assault weapon or a .50 BMG rifle to, or the possession of an assault weapon or a .50 BMG rifle by, a sworn peace officer member of an agency specified in subdivision (e), provided that the peace officer is authorized by his or her employer to possess or receive the assault weapon or the .50 BMG rifle. Required authorization is defined as verifiable written certification from the head of the agency, identifying the recipient or possessor of the assault weapon as a peace officer and authorizing him or her to receive or possess the specific assault weapon. For this exemption to apply, in the case of a peace officer who possesses or receives the assault weapon prior to January 1, 2002, the officer shall register the assault weapon pursuant to Section 12285 on or before April 1, 2002; in the case of a peace officer who possesses or receives the assault weapon on or after January 1, 2002, the officer shall register the assault weapon pursuant to Section 12285 not later than 90 days after possession or receipt. In the case of a peace officer who possesses or receives a .50 BMG rifle on or before January 1, 2005, the officer shall register the .50 BMG rifle on or before April 30, 2006. In the case of a peace officer who possesses or receives a .50 BMG rifle after January 1, 2005, the officer shall register the .50 BMG rifle not later than one year after possession or receipt. The peace officer must include with the registration, a copy of the authorization required pursuant to this paragraph.

I am sure that your commands will have this information, but the key thing here is that your command has to issue you a letter allowing you to possess an assault weapon. Ensure you contact your command BEFORE transfering the weapon in to California.

If anyone else has some gouge on this please jump in. All I was doing was an internet search on gun laws in California with the expectation that I find a loophole written in for military members. I did find a loophole in state law, BUT as military members you have to be aware of the state law and the policies of your command. Talk to your command before you do anything that may get you in trouble.

Hope that helps out.

K

[Kinnikinik]

PS. The changeover to the M-4 was two-fold in my book. One side was to standardize the weapon of choice in SPECWAR, and the second was to standardize the type of ammo used throughout the military. Now SPECWAR guys can go and requisition ammo from army or marine units (OK OK airforce too). Prior to this the MP5 shot 9mm ammo, which may or may not be hard to come by.

The M-4 has a great selection of accessories and is a great weapon. I'm glad they made the switch. Then again, there is always going to be hanger's on to the last weapon type. Its all about personal preference. As long as it makes a hole in someone it is doing its job.

K

[SPEARS]

Im curious Kinnikinik what do you think about the M-14

[Kinnikinik]

Story time. You seem to hit on all my sore points SPEAR... do I know you =)

First off about the weapon, the M-14 is a fine weapon. It is hardy, well put together, easy to clean, and solid. Plus, it shoots 7.62, which is a very nice round. If you run out of ammo, it also makes a very effective club.

The downpoints, man I would hat to lug that thing around the desert. The wood stock is heavy and the weapon is pretty unweildy. The extra mass helps when taking careful aim for long shots, but I would prefer something I can manuever faster to aquire multiple targets. The magazines are prone to jamming (what magazines aren't 90% of failures to fire can be blamed on the magazine), not to mention 7.62 ammo gets heavy compared to 5.56.

The M-4 and M-16 do not fire as large a round, but it is at a much higher velocity. Unless you have a full body M-16, and most SOF guys have the collapsable stock, you are S.O.L. if it comes to a hand to hand fight where you want to use your primary weapon to bludgeon someone. We can argue about this till we are blue in the face, but the idea is not to let them get that close, plus with a shorter barrel (carbine vs. rifle) you have much better close range tactility.

OK, this story is about how you should never trust someone else with your weapon. Always inspect and maintain control of your own weapon and if you have to accept a weapon from someone else, check it out thoroughly!

Now, to some of you this is a no duh situation, but we make mistakes and here I am airing one of my mistakes to the world.

I had been flown onboard a fleet ship to pick up a fleet sailor augmentee for some work up in Basrah. I lugged my warload with me and it was going to be a short turn around with our helo flight taking off in just a few hours. So, I go to meet this guy and he shows up (thank God they got him cammies) for a 2 week mission with a Jansport backpack filled with underwear and toothpaste... and not much else. So, I ask him, where is your body armor? Answer: I don't have any. So I ask him another question, "Where are your weapons?" Answer: They never gave me any. Great! Three hours until the helo takes off and this guy has no helmet, no body armor, and no weapons and we are flying into the middle of Iraq.

So, we head on down to the ship's armory. There is no one in there. I proceeded to cuss profusely and headed to the XO's office. Well, I'll be damed if one phone call didn't get the armory officer out of his rack. He dragged two of his guys with him and told them to give me whatever I wanted. I'm thinking to myself "Cha Ching!" we are golden! Not so much. There is not a single M-4 or M-16 onboard this boat. The only sidearms they have are 1911 style .45. So, they bring out the 1911 with rust all over it. This is not going to be good. They said it was their watch weapon. And I asked when it was fired last. Their murmurs gave me the impression that it hadn't been fired SINCE 1911. Fine I said, and I brought out my cleaning kit and started cleaning the weapon while they searched for a rifle or carbine. What do they give my unprepared friend? A vintage M-14 that they use to shoot the shot line over during unreps. One hour to lift off, we have a flight brief to go to. So I grabbed the weapon. And then I asked for ammo and the proverbial caca hit the proverbial fan.

"I'm sorry, we can't give you any ammo they tell me. We have to keep our inventory." Of course I had hit my boiling point, so I called the XO again and the XO called WEPS and he called the shop. So, they lug out the ammo. First off, the guard rounds for the 1911 are crusted over with salt, but I'll be damned if they wern't swimming in CLP. 45 minutes to take off, next flight is in 48 hours (pilots have a sweet deal). Then they rummage around for 7.62 ammo. I see a GMSN run in with a belt of ammo from the M-60 ondeck... yep, covered with salt. I said screw it, give me what you got, plus a few wire brushes and I will see what I can do. Only then do I see the immaculate .45 on the GM1's waist and see into his gun vault where there are M-14s that may have not seen work in Korea.

So, HOT we flew to Basrah. The pilots were new to the AO and were using every evasive maneuver they knew to avoid RPG attacks. The worst I saw on the way up were some scared sheep and my lunch about to come up. I'm not a pilot though, so I kept my mouth shut (them leaving me in Basrah is another story altogether).

We got to Basrah and hooked up with our unit. Of course whenever you meet a new group of SOF guys they want to know if you are a liability for them, so they take you out to shoot. We get out to the range and we get set up and old boy pulls out his M-14. Wow, let me tell you everyone wanted to shoot it! It was like a trip down memory lane. Well, my companion pulls out the weapon (obviously has never shot before in his life!) and then pulls out the ammo, in links. Talk about a cluster, that stuff was dripping in CLP and covered in corrosion. Well, the brits see that and we determine that the ammunition needs to be used up (Up yours Mr. "Don't shoot the ammo"), so we sit down to clean the ammo, and delink it so we can feed it into the magazines (one of the three had a defective spring). Well, it is my buddy's weapon, so he is the first to shoot it. After some excessive muzzle flash from all that CLP we notice he didn't hit anything! Well, I suggested we adjust his sights. So I sight down his weapon and realize that the front sight is 90 degrees off from where it is supposed to be. More cursing and considering whether or not to tell the guys and look like a complete idiot thanks to the armory on the ship.

Well, I told them (safety ALWAYS trumps pride) and fortunately one of the Brits was a very well known and well respected munitions expert for British films who was called up for the War. He conveniently had a M-14 front sight alignment tool, also called a leatherman. I don't know if that is in the manual, but you do what you have to do. Well, we finally got things sighted in, we aquired some good ammo from some US units there and things went well from there on (until I was supposed to fly home). That Brit did pull me aside and give me some sage advice. He said, "When you get back on that ship, find whoever gave you that ammo and those weapons, and kick his ***."

I never did get back to that ship, but I have a feeling the message got back to them. God bless the good ole boys club.

So, the moral of the story. It does not matter what your time schedule is like. If you are dealing with something as vitally important to your survival as a weapon, take the time to ensure what you are taking into battle is ready for battle. And test your stuff. If we hadn't gone out shooting, we may have ended up having to use that weapon and that ammo in a combat situation, and that could have been fatal not only to ourselves, but to everyone around us.

Check your gear, and ensure your buddy has their gear locked on. Its all about being a team. Don't screw you shipmate. GM1, I know who you are and you had better hope we never meet up again. That is an example how NOT to run an armory.

So, thats my M-14 story. Someday I know I will be telling it at a VFW somewhere slamming down cheap beers and telling sea stories to guys who have heard them all before. For now though, I have a fresh crowd.

K

[asoon2be]

Excellent story. I love reading experiences like that. If you have more keep em coming!

[asoon2be]

Oh ya. What do you think about the M14 mk 0 (EBR) ? I hear the SEAL teams have been using it for the past year or so.

[Kinnikinik]

I haven't shot it. There isn't much sniping to be done off a boat. We like to keep a crapload of ammo onboard and saturate the target. It may not be as elegant as "one shot one kill", but damn is it pretty!

Take a look at the specs for the MK 19... we generally had two of those and two .50 Cal machine guns on our hard mounts. Remember its all about the ammo.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/mk19.htm

[minitex]

I be able to bring down my m4 legally


No30 round mags but you can bring your piece as long as you keep it off base, I have a bushmaster M4 with and A2 carryhandle ,foregrip, and bushnell redot/infrared scope

[asoon2be]

I have a Colt LE6920. Ya I read up on that a little bit and ya you have to make your mags 10 rounds and the handguns can only hold 10. Cali doenst permit Class 3 weapons. Kinda ruins my plans on getting a 10.5 barrel with a gemtech or AA silencer when I become 21. But if I make it into a team I will be satisfied with the armory they have I'm sure. I'm actually going out to my buddies land to shoot it soon... shooting ranges here dont allow rapid fire.

[MK45Gunner]

WOW! K
That is a very painful story to hear! well first i didnt even know of any ships with 1911's still onboard, and most ships now have at least some M-16's and i know most state side ships have MK 18's for their VBSS teams now that the surface navy is certifiying their teams in non-compliant boardings. I do not for a minute doubt your story K just hard to swallow that there are guys out there like the GM1 and at other commands that give fleet GM's a bad name. Linked 7.62, (lightning and fire shoot through my brain as i beat the crap out of gunner-timmy in the powder-mag). You know ive been part of fleet supported NSW missions and we always have done all we can to support any and all mission's: setting up a range or a secondary make shift armory, or pulling zodiacs out of the water with the VLS crane, and manning up are MG's for fire support. It just amazes me that those guys were so effed up in that AO, ive been to the gulf, thats not the time to have your Gear all fouled up. I was always taught from when i first got to the fleet, guns should always be battle ready unless labeled with a danger tag, in wich you better have parts on order or a job in to get the gun overhauled, know where all your ammunition is, all magazines should have a posted inventory, a suprise attack by stealth boats is not the time to be wondering where the .50 ammo is, ammo should always be able to be fired and if not it should be put aside and labeled so, and disposed of upon returning to port or when the opportunity arises and ensure that all expenditures are accounted for. No gun, no matter the size or caliber , or environment should have rust on it. Guns do not have rust on them! And if it does it is your job to remove it, like yesterday! Lastely the title is Gunner's MATE, you are a Technician. You are a Mate to all those who operate your weaponry, Safety is your prime concern. Well K im just glad nothing did happen to you over there, yeah thats a well deserved A** Wooping for GM1, what a punk.

[Kinnikinik]

Thanks for the kind words MK45. I have never had problems with any Specwar armories, and very few problems with other armories. This, I am sure is an anomoly around the fleet. It is out there though, and something to look out for. Don't let someone else's incompetence become your emergency.

Always remember, take care of your gear before you take care of yourself.

Good to hear we have some fine Gunner's Mates out there. Thanks for making sure we are always in fighting shape!

K

[SeaSpectre]

Damn K! The world has changed a bit since I was in. We used a standard M-16(sometimes equipped with the M-203). I actually carried the M-14 more often because I preferred the 7.62(.308 Win.) over the little .223, and our standard sidearm was the Sig Sauer P226 in 9mm. And I generally felt pretty well armed.

Spectre out

[minitex]

i like colt but it was to pricey, and you can get your class 3 and handguns in texas with a miIID just not a conceal carry license