PFS (knee injury)

[PaulieP]

Has anyone delt with this or worked through it?

[snow85]

maybe so, pp.... if anyone on this site knew what you were talking about.

ever seen the guy with the hat?

[PaulieP]

Patellofemoral Pain Syndrome

[snow85]

how do you know that's what it is?

and of course, it stands to reason, that if you know what it is in those terms, you should know how to ... fix it.

so what's the problem?

[PaulieP]

Well that's what they think it is. I have a physical therapy appointment this friday but I'm trying to be more proactive. The doctor did the same thing I did when I went to see him... googled running knee injury and pulls up the same site I looked at the night before. I also posted about it to see if anyone worked their way through this while or during their training.

[snow85]

if you've googled it, you probably have read what typically causes it, although the exact 'determinant' is still disputed.

how tall are you and how much do you weigh?

your physical therapy appointment is probably going to be to strengthen your quad muscles, specifically your vastus medialis oblique, so that they better hold you patella in place, and keep it tracking properly in the groove. they may also concentrate on your hip, ham, it band, and maybe even your calf muscles, depending on how you present.

did your doc say anything about patellar tendinitis (inflammation), or patellar tendinosis (collagen breakdown)?

i know for a fact that no one on this site is going to be able to tell you anything that your PT won't tell you.

being more proactive may not be a good thing. do what you've been doing, so that your therapist can see you in your 'normal' state. don't take time off until they tell you to do so. they very well may give you some exercises and tell you to rest for a bit. if you rest between now and then, they won't be able to determine what is going on with your knee b/c you could very well alleviate the symptoms, which will of course, return when you resume full activity.

sorry charlie, but come back after you've talked to them, and we'll move from there.

[Ryn0]

I had it while i was there. PFS in one knee and ITB in the other... All they will give you is 800mg motrin and tell you to keep going. There is a strap out there that may help. I am sure if you do your research you will find out what to do. Just remember you arent in BUDS yet so there is no need to push through it.

[PaulieP]

Well it turns out to be PFS. Next week I will continue going to physical therapy and they will have me do exercises to strengthen my legs. Turns out when I did HIT workout and did a weight that I wasn't exactly ready for I weakened my muscles. Well I ran 4 miles after that on the beach in front of Hotel del Coronado and did the most damage there.

[asoon2be]

i have had tendonitis in both knees in the front of the knee and under the patella. its really frustrating i have had it for like 4 months. i cut down on the exercising to only 1 mile run a day and its still there. i tried icing it. im about to cut ALL running which is my last resort and stretch and ice it untill it heals. several months ago i did the same thing and it healed for about a week but i started exercising again and it came right back. grrr it pisses me off b/c it keeps me from training. what would be the worste thing that could happen on my knees if i just ignored the swelling?

[snow85]

paulie-- i read what you wrote, and i'm not sure what you're talking about 'weakening the muscles' and doing 'most of the damage' running on the sand. elaborate please.

asson2be--

do you know for a fact that it's tendinitis? if it is, yes, that stuff can last for a long, long time.

instead of plain icing it, try an ice massage-- take a paper cup, fill it 1/2 way and freeze it. then peel off the end and apply PRESSURE to the area that hurts. go vertically along the front of your knee to the point where the little bump is on the front of your upper 'shin.' then go horizontally across that same area. plain ice probably isn't going to do the trick.

you mentioned swelling-- where/what causes it/how much/ can you tell what kind? (if it's fluid, it's really squishy. if it's blood, it's a little harder or boggy to the touch. you may not be able to determine this on your own, so if you can't don't worry about it.)

most importantly though, what makes you think this is tendinitis?

[asoon2be]

do you know for a fact that it's tendinitis?


yes my dr. said it was


that stuff can last for a long, long time.


dang it! ya its lasted awhile for me. how would it affect me if i ignored it and went on with training?



where/what causes it/how much/ can you tell what kind?

on the bottom tip of my patella, running, a little bit, im not sure some people have said it comes from the tendon rubbing against something. not sure. the pain is alot its just very aggrivating and wont go away.

[snow85]

yes my dr. said it was


that's the answer i wanted to hear.



how would it affect me if i ignored it and went on with training?


it'll get worse.

you've got to rest it, ice it... those things will help with the inflammation, but won't cure it. i think that more than one of these threads is turning into a tendinitis/knee thread, so i'll see what i can do to consolidate the information for you guys. you hang in there, too.

[ndogg]

I just had my knee scoped a month ago for this. Apparently I had 3 or 4 LARGE cracks in the cartilage on the back of my knee cap that were causing my pain. The doctor "smoothed" it out but I don't think it helped at all since the cracks are still there. I'm in PT now but since no one knows how the cracks got there in the first place, no one knows how to prevent further damage/pain.

All I can say is all Doctors and all Physical Therapists are NOT created equal. There are a TON of quacked out PT's around that will just say: knee cap pain is caused by a tight ITB and you need to do this and this to fix it. They will not take the time and probably don't even know how to properly diagnose your problem. Good luck and be carefull. Don't settle for the closest Doc, find the best one in your area.

[snow85]

I just had my knee scoped a month ago for this.


no, you didn't. they are two separate and distinct conditions. your fractures could have been caused by almost anything from direct trauma or repeated dislocation of the patella, to something like quad contractions. jumping could have caused your fractures. your doctor may feel like the cartilage will heal on its own, may have tried stimulated the patella to try to 'grow more', and took away your rough spots.

*most* patella pain *is* caused by musculature and ligamenntous imbalances, and over time, sometimes, these can cause fractures. ALL allied healtlh professionals and physicians have to maintain current educational standards, taking and passing several short classes per year, however, medicine is not perfect. there is still so, so much that is unknown. just because no one knows how your injuries occurred, doesn't mean that they don't know what they're talking about. do what they say, and if you have any reservations, get a second opinion. it's as simple as that.

[PaulieP]

well things are looking good. After taking a what? 6 month break from running related training I'm not opitmistic with my knee. This week I managed to get on the pavement just fine. With proper stretching before and after to include laying some ice on my knee I was just fine.

[PaulieP]

well I'm back after taking pretty close to a whole year off of training related to running. Random occurances of knee pain. With the new year I ordered a kettlebell and taking it slow and easy with my running. Let's pray it goes well

[cadre2]

well I'm back after taking pretty close to a whole year off of training related to running

Welcome back.

[knock28]

I feel your pain man.... literally.
I was diagnosed (self diagnosed, then by an athletic trainer, then a doctor, and a PT) with PFS about 5 years ago... I did the PT but to no avail. I later tried the Egoscue method and that helped me out. I never got to where I was as far as my running performance due to other training focuses, but was able to play a college level rugby season pain free. Right now I'm going to switch back to a more running focused base so we'll se how I do.

I'm not sure how your knee pain is, but mine (after I rested it for about a year) would only kick in when I'd run at a 7min/mile pace for more than a mile. I could hike fine (I worked 2 seasons as a hotshot firefighter), and doing sprints didn't hurt but the running still bothered my knee.

As for now, I'm building back up slowly. I'm making sure to incorporate a lot of stretching before and after running-- my flexibility has increased drastically. I'm also going to incorporate a lot of other low impact activities such as swimming, biking and stair machine. To really put a stress on my running workouts, I'm doing high-intensity intervals as that doesn't bother my knee and I will be able to build up my aerobic/anaerobic base.

Wish me luck!