View Full Version : Leave no man behind?
RoninSamurai
11-18-2002, 10:22 AM
I don't want to stir up any old ghosts or tick anyone off but this is a question that I need answered. I was watching "Inside the Kill Box" last night on Discovery and I heard that there was a SEAL that was knocked out of a helicopter as it was heading away from a hot LZ. It talked about how he personally shot every gunner in the nest that was firing on the helicopter but that he was overtaken by other ground troops and eventually died.
My question is why didn't anyone go after him?
fish78
11-18-2002, 10:56 AM
They did, and his body was recovered. I will not go into details, but some of the information can be found on this site.
Ronin
Apparently you saw or were offered only part of the story. Go to the below link and the full story of the rescue is there.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/5/24/170210.shtml
RoninSamurai
11-18-2002, 01:33 PM
Wazz,
Thanks for this link. I don't understand why they didn't mention that on Discovery. What he did took guts. That kind of thing can really make you stop and see what the human spirit can do huh?
Thanks again.
Ronin
You have just experienced why many of us Frogs and SEALs refuse to do interviews, surveys, book contributions, and the like. The true interview and story will be altered to the desires of the Producer, writer, or Director. Parts will be cut, altered, or inserted to make the end results fit not the Frogman or SEAL, but rather the party who is publishing the particular piece.
Some of our own SEALs on this site were inspired as teenagers by a movie that caused them, when grown, to progress into the Teams. I, being a little older, saw the movie and asked my local friends and family members to please not watch it. To me it was embarrassing. However, with a smile on my face, I give way to my fellow SEALs who were inspired by that movie and henceforth went on to become SEALs, and Team Mates that I am proud of.
fish78
11-18-2002, 06:56 PM
Wazz,
Richard Widmark inspired a lot of people.
sealpup121
11-19-2002, 12:01 AM
Ronin
You have just experienced why many of us Frogs and SEALs refuse to do interviews, surveys, book contributions, and the like. The true interview and story will be altered to the desires of the Producer, writer, or Director. Parts will be cut, altered, or inserted to make the end results fit not the Frogman or SEAL, but rather the party who is publishing the particular piece.
Some of our own SEALs on this site were inspired as teenagers by a movie that caused them, when grown, to progress into the Teams. I, being a little older, saw the movie and asked my local friends and family members to please not watch it. To me it was embarrassing. However, with a smile on my face, I give way to my fellow SEALs who were inspired by that movie and henceforth went on to become SEALs, and Team Mates that I am proud of.
RoninSamurai
As Wazz had said in the entertainment field, whether it be print or visual, things are truly interpreted, as the mind conjures, to tell a story by those who were (usually) not there. Unlike Wazz, I saw the movie and it was pretty good for entertainment, but a comic strip introduced me to SEAL.
But I think the question deserves a "fuller" answer. We don't leave men behind. Each and every SEAL I know lives by that rule. It is not a joke, or a cause celeb, a movie cliche or a line from a novel. What it is though, is a very real part of every war. Every SEAL I know, that has been in combat, knows you can 'buy the farm" on any mission. Each and every one of us would rather see our team mates safe, then put at a risk that all would die for the sake of one. Our team mate you refer to, did lay down his life for his team mates, for that reason we do not leave them behind. If there is a way, we bring them home. To honor the life, of a man of honor, a man that gave so much, deserves that, don't you think?
RoninSamurai
11-19-2002, 04:18 AM
Yes I agree with you. I would think that would be the very least I could do to thank someone that saved my life. Understand though that I wasn't doubting the Teams, I was just thinking about this.
Where could I find more info about this here?
Wetwash
11-19-2002, 04:53 AM
the media an dSeALs have always had a rocky relationship.. as with most LE units...As Wazz said, most SEALs that have BTDT, don't write books, or talk about their experiences to the media. I just had a news article done about me.. It was about Indian story telling.. But They had to pu in the top.. EX NAVY SEAL TELLS STORIES.. ...Geeesh
lauren78
11-19-2002, 12:35 PM
i heard that the pilot of the helicopter was a woman and that she refused to go back and get him. I also heard that he slipped on oil and fell out the helicopter because there had been an oil leak.
SpecOps_Nut
11-20-2002, 12:52 AM
They definitely went after him - and took some serious casualties in the process - look in recent Soldier of Fortunes (the story might be in July or August '02) - and I also read a story about it on MSNBC.com
sealpup121
11-20-2002, 05:59 PM
Yes I agree with you. I would think that would be the very least I could do to thank someone that saved my life. Understand though that I wasn't doubting the Teams, I was just thinking about this.
RoninSamurai,
I realized that you were not doubting a thing Partner. That is a thought that many think off. I just thought I would go a little deeper into the answer your question asked. Ronin Samurai ,as your board handle, you have choosen the name of men who have lost their allegiance to all, but themselves. SEAL, like those men, have that allegiance to one another born in the pain of life training and death in war.
fish78
11-20-2002, 06:15 PM
"pup,
We may butt heads on politics and policy sometimes, but we are of one mind when it comes to honor.
Great post!
RoninSamurai
11-20-2002, 08:02 PM
Ronin Samurai ,as your board handle, you have choosen the name of men who have lost their allegiance to all, but themselves.
I was wondering if anyone noticed that. The specific reason that I chose this name is because of difficulties getting into the Navy. I very badly wanted to be a SEAL but was rejected due to some problems I had when I was younger. I've moved on and made myself better because of it but the Navy didn't see it that way. I head a rumor that the MEPs purges all records every two years, so after my two years is up (7 months) I'll go back. Until I'm in the Navy and living my dream that I refuse to let die, I'll be a Ronin.
I've seen what you've posted on the boards and though we do disagree politically, I respect what you say. Thanks for taking some time out for me and the others here.
RoninSamurai
childofgod
11-20-2002, 09:33 PM
QUOTED]
Ronin Samurai ,as your board handle, you have choosen the name of men who have lost their allegiance to all, but themselves.
I was wondering if anyone noticed that. The specific reason that I chose this name
[/QUOTED]
I noticed your name. But I'm an odd duck, so I was concentrating on how ronin means "masterless samurai", and then the second word in your name is "samurai".
That would make you "Masterless Samurai Samurai"
Good luck getting into the Navy, I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.
sealpup121
11-20-2002, 11:32 PM
We may butt heads on politics and policy sometimes
Fish and Ronin I would not waste your time by posting if we agreed on all. It is the differences that make us the country we are and hope to become. I enjoy the disagreements as much as the times we are of like mind. Enjoy and I look forward to your post.
Ronin
It sounds quite heroic when one writes that no Team Member or Fellow Unit Member will be left behind. This was magnified by the Marines that marched out of the Chosen Resevoir, pulling their wounded and dead comrades out on sleds through the snow. And the act of aiding the wounded is underscored by so many Medics receiving the Medal of Honor. But each casualty retrieval is uniquie to its own circumstances. There are times the forgotten were left behind or could not be retrieved. This is weighed out by the rescuing resources versus the circumstantial resources.
One of my own Team Mates had to be left behind as we were run from a beach survey into the ocean by out numbered fire. My Team Mate took a head shot. Two other Team Mates tried to hold onto him, but the soaked winter clothing and surf took the dead Team Mate under. He was retrieved several weeks later by an Army unit when the surf washed his remains ashore.
And to add to the latter part of this thread, discussion is what makes the valid points rise to the surface. If we all agreed on all topics too often we would agree on an incorrect conclusion. Discussion and disagreement leads to improvement or correction.
sawillia
11-21-2002, 09:22 AM
Good post. Wazz... sorry for your loss. That had to be tough and unimaginable.
Wetwash
11-22-2002, 03:54 AM
the Leave no man behind thing i sdue to the loyalty of Teammates, the brotherhood. We have had to leave a couple behind Temporarily in Nam.. BUt we always went back and got them. Wazz that had to be a tough one.
Noone can comprehend the bond we have as SEAls or UDT unless they have been there.
Wetwash
The lost of my Team Mate got worse. Some many years later I was encouraged to write to the wife of the lost Team Mate for the sake of the grown children who may of wanted to know their Father died a "hero".
The wife responded that she was unable to review the remains and always had a shadowed doubt that who ever was in the casket may not be her husband. She was very gracious to me. And the two grown children each wrote me an email of thanks.
We actually lost two that day. As we were pulling a Team Mate out of the water to freeboard level on a LCP, the Team Mate took one in the back and went limp, forever. We were able to retrieve him. But there were several other Purple Hearts passed out that day. Me not being one of them.
To erase the blank spots, I suspect the fish and surf had taken its toll on the unretrieved remains. And we could not "storm" the beach that day with rescue personnel as we only had the LCPR and LCP's from the single APD to "attack" the beach. Plus our Platoons were scattered in the ocean and returning from hooch patrols. And the opposing forces were well hidden on the beach ready to pick off the boats in open water as the boats approached the beach. And although the APD dropped approximately 20 5" rounds on the beach, the APD had only the single 5" to protect us going in. It was just not our day, as many combatants have experienced. The movies it ain't.
The movies it ain't.
Amen Wazz,
I know the feeling, when it's definately not your day. I hate to sound like a shrink, but thank you for sharing that with us.
A62 out
tfwmissions
11-22-2002, 09:29 PM
I think that this "one for all, all for one" mentality is noble, however, risking the lives of many men, let's say more than 5 or 10 to save the life of one just doesn't make sense to me. If one man must die then that really sucks, but if many men die trying to save the life of one who will run the HIGH risk of dying anyway then that doesn't make sense! I know what most of you will say. You will say "if that one man is you wouldn't you want your teammates to come after you?" My answer to that is simple, HEEEEEEEEEEECK YES!!! However, if saving my life at the cost of many other men dying then I think the stronger sacrafice would be me giving my life to save the others. Hope this makes sense.
most SEALs that have BTDT, don't write books, or talk about their experiences to the media
What about Marcinko or Hackworth? (I am not trying to spark and argument here since I know wetwash could kick my *** any day of week, hung out or hung over)
fish78
11-29-2002, 07:49 PM
Yo! tfwmissions,
Did yor ever hear the parable of the "good sheperd?"...same concept. Which is more important the one or the one hundred?
RoninSamurai
11-30-2002, 05:44 PM
If one man must die then that really sucks, but if many men die trying to save the life of one who will run the HIGH risk of dying anyway then that doesn't make sense!
How could you possibly feel safe with anyone on a Team if you could look at him and know that there is a line and when it is crossed your liife isn't worth it? How could you have a brotherhood with someone if you know that he will cut and run when you need him most? How could you choose the brother you would leave behind if you had to?
twf, I don't know how you would make that call but let me say that for me, that call is I wouldn't. If I had to die and if I know that other would too to rescue my brother I would. I love my brothers. Period. And no offense, but if I had to take someone out with me into a situation like that, I wouldn't want to go with you.
Moon2002
11-30-2002, 08:18 PM
You know Ronin I would have to agree with you-
Im not a SEAL, but I definitely understand what your talking about. Id much rather die with my brothers i have made then to leave them behind, in that sense that there was something i could have done but chose not to. To those of you who have been there and had to, i can only imagine that everyone tried with everything they had to get them, i cant feel or even understand the loss one must feel. LIke Ronin, i wouldnt feel comfortable at all if i was with men who had a line that was like 'Oh well hes stuck there, screw this im out of here. Sucks for him." For some reason that seems so not like everything one is taught.
Forgive me for my idealism, even if you Ex/SEALs call me nieve i would totaly understan that because iv not BTDT, but do any of you understand what i mean?
If i have offended anyone of at any way at all, i Swear on Gods earth that was and is not my intentions and will change/edit/or delete this post if so desired. I was just putting my two cents because i happen to agree with Ronins last post.
Thx
-Matt
lauren78
11-30-2002, 08:47 PM
I have mixed feelings on this issue, but i'll say my piece. I'm not a SEAL, i dont have seal mentalilty and i never will. If it were my husband that was about to die I would hope people would try to save him, but to be honest, if it came down to him putting his life at great risk to save someone else i'd want him to save himself. sorry..i want him around for a long time. I guess one has to be in that situation to know what to really do. If it were me, i would try my best to save someone, but if it my life were severely endangered i'd save myself first. there's no point in losing ten lives as opposed to one. i'm sure when soldiers are at war, they do there best and try to use their best judgement as to what they can handle. it must be a horrible feeling for someone though to watch their teamates leave as they lay there dying...I hope Neil Roberts didnt suffer for too long. My husband said that at BUD/s they showed letters that he had written his wife if he were to die...