Women in the Navy SEALs

[seal_girl]

I want to be in the Navy SEALs. There is one problem ....my gender.
I am a female and everyone in the military I talk to say that women will never be in the SEALs. I'm not giving up my dream, but what do you think. Will women ever be in the SEALs? Why or why not?

[Gokusfusion]

I want to be in the Navy SEALs. There is one problem ....my gender.
I am a female and everyone in the military I talk to say that women will never be in the SEALs. I'm not giving up my dream, but what do you think. Will women ever be in the SEALs? Why or why not?


I am not a SEAL,but I don't think women will ever be in the Navy SEALs.. Women just are not physically capable of the jobs SEALs have to do. As Mark said to another ladie "<b>could you carry a half lifed 225 pound man out in a live fire fight?</b> Someone else also stated that they have heard SEALs say they would never run a mission with a female partnership. I do believe on the other hand their are women who have the mind to become a SEAL,but just simply are not physcially strong enough. Your average good shaped male cannot pass BUD/S due to its difficulty. It's good to dream about becoming a SEAL,but I really don't want you getting your hopes up to high. The truth hurts sometimes. Women will never be Navy SEALs . If there ever is a female SEAL to spawn it will be a devistating act...... Hope this helps. Although I have heard there are female Delta operators. They do some stuff SEALs do. But don't get your hopes up on Delta either it's more selective. I am not trying to put you down in anyway or make you feel like you cannot become something in the military. I am just trying to give you a straight up answer. Good luck to you.

Forgive my sloppy typing.. There are some misspelled words sealgirl.. It's past my bed time and I am to tired to correct them lol.... later

[AWM-F]

Please, don't take this the wrong way and get defensive but prepare yourself for the comments your question invites.

This is a subject which refuses to die, and is often referred to as 'Betsy'. I suggest you check out some of the other threads on Betsy in the General Talk lounge. Asking your question in the 'Ask a SEAL' forum is, basically, asking for trouble. Remember, everyone is entitled to an opinion and not everyone can state their opinion tactfully.

I won't say any more on the subject.

[sirenx]

gokufusion has a major point...upper body strength is necessary and most necessary when you are dealing with dead weight...in a situation involving a SEAL team i would assume that that would be a serious and most necessary time for one to have upper body strength. If you are interested in SEAL team why don't you cansider a career with the CIA? female operatives are very important and they are desperate for individuals with knowledge of linguistics. Our intelligence community is very impportant and SEALs and other operatives rely on the information gathered to conduct their missions. The CIA actively recruits on college campuses and participates in career days. I reccomend checking it out as there are certain areas of study that make you alot more appealing . Also the rules for intelligence operatives are very limiting in areas of your private life so make sure you can deal with that. I personally believe that military intelligence is where we ultimately live and die in the art of war .

[A62]

Betsy


Would someone please find one of those new fangled computer bugles and blow Taps on "Betsy" LMAO
A62 over

[dboyle]

Anything is possible, just not plausible. I am not a SEAL, but do I believe there are women who could complete BUD/s... Yes. But on average men are physcially stronger and faster than women. The introduction of allowing women into an already rigorous and physically demanding program may not be plausible economically. With drop out rates of 70-80% of men, women would be even higher (since the physcial standards will not be lowered for equality purposes) I have no information backing my claim, but I would assume drop out rates would be 95% or higher. Theoretically, It's just not worth the Navy's time to train 100 different women and have only at max 5 BUD/s graduates. It would even be possible that there are no women graduates in a class. Think about the wasted resources which could have been applied to a mens-only class.

P.S. You also start running into equality issues. If anyone is familiar with college sports Title IX, they know what it has done to men's college sports. Men better qualified for the BUD/s program will be dropped from BUD/s so positions are free for women less qualified. Disallowing women from being SEALs may sound unfair, but fair is cotton candy and pink elephants.

[Chickenhawk]

The whole thing is a moot point, since Congress has outlawed women in ground combat roles. Do a google search for "Ground Combat Exclusion Law", or something similar. The way Congress works, this isn't likely to change in our lifetimes.

[dboyle]

I disagree with it being a moot point. This is why we have admendments. No law is constant. And to say it is unlikely for women to be in ground combat roles in our lifetime is very large assumption. Ground combat doesn't require any substantial physical requirements. Take a look at women in the business world (over 50% of women work.) College and universities drop more qualified women applicants (in favor of men applicants) to keep college gender ratios as close to 50/50 as possible. Don't be naive in persuading yourself that ground combat is only for men. I understand why SEALs is restricted to men, but ground combat will change as women become an underlying force in politics and business.

[sirenx]

I have never seen anything about buds training and women but there was an interesting experiment done with a group of women who were ut through ranger training. they selected the women from a wide variety of physically fit but at different stages women...some had recently given birtha dn some were in competition shape ath;letes...some were newly recovered from and injury but athletes and there were some other stats that i cannot remember. The result was tha a higher percentage of them completed the training but the fall outs were much more a case of physical injury than i give ups"....they drew alot of blood and did alot of testes to see what biological changes occured during the traing compared to males... it really wasnt a surprise...women under stress tend to produce more pain killing endorphins than men...they tend to feel initial pain more intensely but over time suffer less..they also had very few drop outs to hypothermia as is a common cause of men...reason of course was subcutaneous fat....they also did not deteriorate as fast mentally and could handle the spatial skills better than the men afte long periods of no sleep

it is all just mother nature...we are designed to give birth and feed infants...our species needs more of us than men in order to survive as we carry the children and keep them alive after they are born. We are the caregivers and there is no rest for us and that extra body fat is brain food so we do better with no sleep...we have better spatial skills and that is why most factories that package small items employ only females...same with sewing factories, that is why we made the pottery and clothes...wove the baskets and as some anthropologists are discovering often made the tools.....and you get the point.....we however are not design to carry back the elk we just killed or pee standing up...damn handy when you have to go around protecting and killing all the time.

we were not initially designed for combat either but since we are genetically more important to the species than men...Imagine mass destruction... few guys and alot of women of childbearing age could get us back there in not ime..this is a theory as to why women can hormonally adapt to things ...competition actually makes us increas male hormone levels in our bodies...iI am pretty sure that it does the same thing in men but their is no known simple activity that can make a man more estrogen....perhaps being forced to attend daily sewing circles and tuperware parties while caring for children and watching oprah would do the trick.....HMMMM
that mother nature is a harsh mistress but she is smart...

[Chickenhawk]

I question why you want to see women in ground combat at all. I was brought up with some old fashioned values, like opening doors for women, pushing in chairs, offering a seat in a crowded waiting area, etc. Not a slight against women at all, IMHO, but rather the opposite. It will take quite a while for some of us to unlearn such old-fashioned notions as chivalry, common courtesy, and "ladies first". I don't doubt women can be just as mean and effective in combat, provided they are on the winning side. Several studies have been conducted testing women in combat environments, dealing with casualties, fire, flooding, etc. One Navy study comes to mind, where NONE of the women were able to haul a wounded shipmate up a ladder to save them from flooding or fire-filled compartments, dragging charged fire hoses or water pumps, etc. There are males who can't handle this, and they don't have any business on a warship, either. The military is NOT a suitable environment for social experimentation, since (unlike much of civilian society) people's lives may be on the line. We have to train for the worst case scenario (ie: the USS Cole bombing), and we don't have time for people to play catch up.

[Wetwash]

AGAIN?????..LOL ChickenHawk is right.. it is a moot point. why bother with this discussion here. All the points have been discussed for years. There are no females in SEALs, never have been, and as far as the US government stands , never will be.

[lauren78]

I am a woman and i have to say that i would not want to see women become navy seals. I agree on that whole not being able to lift a 200 somthing lb man. I know i couldnt. I hate to say it but women are so much more emotional than men. I just dont think they could handle being in a high combat war situation. they would hurt themselves or one of their teamates. There are just some jobs that will always be a man's job, and special forces groups fall under that category. Some women just have this desperate need to prove they can do anything a man can do. But i agree with GI Jane when she says, Is a man's death not as hurtful as a woman's? Of course it is.

[lauren78]

and sirenx, the world is waay overpopulated. I dont think the human population will deteriorate if a few women did happen to die in war, lol. and not all women choose to have children either. i dont think our only design was to give birth.

[sirenx]

evolutionarily speaking yes that was what we are designed for amongst many other things that i also mentioned . we may have moved past it as a need but our bodies are still packaged the way they were when we had to lived in a cave and every single day was us trying to survive. As i stated in my post very clearly we were also designed to do alot of other things...actually many cultural anthropoligist believe that we were designed to do the bulk of things necessary within the social group to keep it cohesive. there are theories that one of the reasons why we are initially more sensitive to pain is so that we will avoid it and keep ourselves safe from harm.

If you look at the structure of any social mammalian group you will find that there are many of the same principal sinvolved. we have evolved rapidly intellectually but we have not been on this planet long enough to get past the physical design of our bodies...evolution does have a way of coming about in huge sudden leaps though and i think as a society that is starting to change. Men and women are capable of some pretty miraculous stuff these days and physiologically great change is happening allover the world...so in a few thousand years you just might be right.

The statement that i made reviously had nothing to do at all with my opinion...it is based on the many years of research done on the subject by scientists and scholars much better than I...the information is available in enormous supply to back up what i said if you care to. all you have to do is watch alot of educational television and you will find the biggest and most fact finding studies presented there. As someone who has studied sociology and anthropology in college i highley suggest that venue as it is concise, correct, and presented in a efficient and entertaining manner comlete with really cool computer graphics.

[fish78]

Siren,
When I was in college, a fraternity brother(who is now a federal judge) and I were engaging one of the lovely coeds in conversation one evening, we asked her about her major, whereby, she enthusiastically proclaimed that she was a sociology major, to which my fraternity brother gufawed,"You mean the study of the obvious?". That ended our conversation.

[Timber]

For the Love of God,

Have we not beaten this poor horse enough yet? Let the poor ******* die already!

It seems like every time we end it, it comes back!

Okay, don't read any more of my post if you will get offended by a rather "female directed" question into female body functions!"





.....

Still here----Don't blame me!


.............




........
First I would like to pose a little test for every Female SEAL wannabe. If you cannot pass the test.......well 'nough said!

1. Field strip every tampon and napkin from your next cycle and tell me if you are still interested!
2. Hide the smell your body emmits when it's that time of your month. Make sure you test your work in a room full of horney friggin baboons (any family of monkey or domestic male dog will do!) Stay in the room for several days with no facilities to bath, no restroom and still having to use more of your feminin products!

What's this got to do with the job? EVERYTHING!

If you pass, get back with me!

Oh yes, Im not a SEAL, can't be, don't want to be----I myself am a female and I pose this test to you only as a small way to prove, it can't be done. So you want to be a SEAL? what only three weeks out of the month?

Timber

[sirenx]

LOL that is the best summation of it i have ever heard...BTW i switched majors...over and over again., taking statistics was the real clincher...those numbers are so easily skewed or just plain ole misrepresented to serve what ever agenda needs to be served that it seemed ridiculous to continue..also i got really bored with it.

I have met more sociology majors working in fields other than sociology than any other majored subject. I think they stick with it cause it makes them look sypathetic and the classes are ridivulously easy. I do however give social workers who are committed to thier jobs real kudos though. Their job is hugely draining and pays terribly, and lets face it the victims of our often f*&^%ed society need someone on their side.

[SpecOps_Nut]

We're a huge country with a huge population - there are just way too many capable men to consider making female ground troops a reality. We just don't need to. Women wanting to is not a good enough reason. I might want to breastfeed my daughters, but Nature has the last word. Politics cannot change our basic biology. Men are built as a they are to fight and hunt. I'm huge. I'm a big hunk of guy. I wouldn't mind being 6 inches shorter and 75 pounds slighter. It'd make my hobbies in motorsport and soccer more realistic...but my DNA doesn't care what I'd rather. Different jobs require different physical capacities, and you can't change the job to suit the person - you pick the person best suited to doing the job. If women were meant to fight to the extent that men are, it would just have been that way. Like the others say though, don't think that means you can't be part of an elite. Look to the CIA, FBI (God knows we need new blood in there) or other military roles. In a way, You and I are in the same boat (unfortunately not a Mark V Patrol Craft) - biology limits what roles we're suited for. I'm interested in small men's ideal sports, but that's not what I am - you are interested in a hard-man's pursuit, warfare, and you're just not the ideal candidate, statistically. I'm not saying you can't kick ***, but you'd do so as the underdog, and when it comes to life and death issues, the abilities of any one person don't mean as much as the overall performance ability of groups. There are female hard-chargers, but put a company of them up against a company of like-minded men, and the women will lose more often. We just do different things differently, and "the ultra-violence" is mostly a guy thing.

enough of me and mine - I just wanted to flog the carcass a couple times.


PS - I do think there should be more opportunity for women in non-direct combat support roles, ie artillery, aviation (incl. combat), Armor, etc.. I think there are probably some types of combat roles that women might be just as well or dare I say better suited for (sniper/scouts, maybe), but as for the basic run/jump/hump/climb/swim stuff - again, we have plenty of guys who are born for that sort of thing.

[A62]

combat support roles, ie artillery

Can you see the average woman throwing a 200 lb projo into an 8" gun? How about the role of the FO. A woman can perform all jobs in the Atry Btry except FO? BTW, FO is not combat support.
a62 out

[jaredtitan]

evolutionarily speaking yes that was what we are designed for amongst many other things that i also mentioned .


Well, evolution is a shaky base for any argument. The "anthropoligist" studies on bones and skeletons and previous cultures is just as shaky. There are many assumptions, little evidence, and no proof. But women have never be the "same" as men and never will be. There are anatomy differences, there in general mental differences. And no ammount of "evolutionary" leaps will change these differences. As for the miraculous stuff that men and women are capable of today - it's not evolution at all. It's called mind over matter, believing that the impossible is possible. Humans are not "evoloving" into something new. They are utilizing what they have always possessed.



all you have to do is watch alot of educational television and you will find the biggest and most fact finding studies presented there.


I have yet to be convinced by the "facts" presented by "scientists" on television. Mostly, there are theories, hypothosis analyzations, and very pretty computer graphics to convince the viewer that "facts" have been "discovered". But if you really examine the theories, if you ask for proof, if you forget the pretty computer generated "facts", then you quickly discover just how little "scientists" and "anthopoligists" and "astronomers" really know for fact and how much is assumed. Anyway, I've diverged again. I encourage you to question more and believe less.

JT

[Timber]

PS - I do think there should be more opportunity for women in non-direct combat support roles, ie artillery, aviation (incl. combat), Armor, etc.. I think there are probably some types of combat roles that women might be just as well or dare I say better suited for (sniper/scouts, maybe), but as for the basic run/jump/hump/climb/swim stuff - again, we have plenty of guys who are born for that sort of thing.


I serve in a Combat Aviation Unit and it sucks when ending up with the guys in the field! Women are in Combat units and serve in combat with things blowing up. I for one would never want my daughter out there in the line of fire!

However, there are limitations as listed in my rather STRAIGHT TO THE POINT post earlier. This is simply one of the biggest points out there-----there are hundreds of other simple basics as to why we should leave it to the men.

I for one prefer the airconditioning and somewhat bug free environment of the tent! LMAO

[sirenx]

point Taken and presented very well. What i love most about science is it is constantly being debated and we often find that we have been completely wrong about all kinds of things...after all way back when the earth was supposed to be flat. What i like is that we now have agreat deal more information to discern from . Often there really are no answers at all just theories...some better than others. My suggestion to watch the discovery channel was a bit tongue in cheek, probably doesn't translate well to text. After spending numerous hours in university libraries doing research in bad lighting and uncomfortable chairs i have to say i have seen alot of the same things i discovered presented there and for the most part they present the various sides of the arguments and show how the data was achieved in a really objective manner. My son watches alot of shows on dinosaurs and those palentologist can get really pissed off at one another...it's pretty funny to imagine them in a WWF throwdown ...but then i digress

I believe you are %100 percent right that what we achieve physically today has every thing to do with mind over matter. Thing is some scientist would theorize that that is due to our evolvement intellectually and our ability to think and control our bodies better with our minds then we could say 1000 years ago. The only things that for sure are fact are that what we want and are capable of is not necessarily what we are designed for and that free will and the human spirit will occasionally prove us wrong to such a degree that we will re-think things allover again. After all a 14 year old girl led the french in battle to victory over the english...now who would have thought that was possible?

[dangordon87]

ok heres a little bulleted list why women shouldnt be in combat:

- men are naturally more aggresive than women
- men are naturally physically stronger than women
- women are naturally emotionally weaker than men
- the men and women may have sex and you don't want sex in the field because a woman can get pregnant plus their may be emotions that could get in the way during battle
- hygeine (unless women would take showers and get rid of their bodily wastes in front of the other men)

men are the hunters and women are the gatherers. it has always been this way and should always remain this way. in hand-to-hand combat, the average male soldier will beat the female soldier because of strength and aggresivness. women can be pilots because that doesnt involve carring heavy loads or fighting or to much physical work in general (not counting extreme cases like a helicopter or plane crash where the pilot may have to defend her/him self). maybe when soldiers all wear exoskeletons THEN maybe women could be in combat. but until that day....

[dangordon87]

ok heres a little bulleted list why women shouldnt be in combat:

- men are naturally more aggresive than women
- men are naturally physically stronger than women
- women are naturally emotionally weaker than men
- the men and women may have sex and you don't want sex in the field because a woman can get pregnant plus their may be emotions that could get in the way during battle
- hygeine (unless women would take showers and get rid of their bodily wastes in front of the other men)

men are the nuthers and women are the gatherers. it has always been this way and should always remain this way. in hand-to-hand combat, the average male soldier will beat the female soldier because of strength and aggresivness. women can be pilots because that doesnt involve carring heavy loads or fighting or to much physical work in general (not counting extreme cases like a helicopter or plane crash where the pilot may have to defend her/him self). maybe when soldiers all wear exoskeletons THEN maybe women could be in combat. but until that day....

[seal_girl]

agree on that whole not being able to lift a 200 somthing lb man. I know i couldnt


for a liot of women that is not really true. I can personaly lift 130 in bench press and 170 or so in just regular stuf (i.e. hay bales, tires, brothers) when it is on the ground and i can use my legs as well. (I feel like i should also point our that also I am very tiny for my age --- only 5'1") . also i can out lift many boys/men i know. Also if some people think that women aren't as agressive i should point out that even though we dont get in bar fight and stuff all of the young teen age girls i know are very agressive. not alot of women in this age are really that nonagressive because they have to learn to survive in a no quarter held or given world. some might not like fighting with hands and feet or words but still we are not the damsils in trouble that most people pictor us as

[Gokusfusion]

for a liot of women that is not really true. I can personaly lift 130 in bench press and 170 or so in just regular stuf (i.e. hay bales, tires, brothers) when it is on the ground and i can use my legs as well.


Are you saying you could lift a 220 lb man while getting shot at and throw him up on your left shoulder, then run with him while trying to fire with the right hand, holding a bulky M4?

Lifting your brothers and hay bales is alot different then trying to run with full gear on while getting shot at, holding a half dead 200+ pound man on your shoulder. (as mark stated)


No offence but benching 130 lbs isn't going to do you much good. I know a SEAL that hits 400 pounds in the benchpress....



(I feel like i should also point our that also I am very tiny for my age --- only 5'1") .

How high can you lift the 170 pounds, how fast, how far can you carry it, how far can you run with it, can you throw it on the ground and pick it up over and over and over putting it on each shoulder without falling over?


Also if some people think that women aren't as agressive i should point out that even though we dont get in bar fight and stuff all of the young teen age girls i know are very agressive.


Bar fights are not the only way to show aggression... Military personel can get in major trouble for barfights...


not alot of women in this age are really that nonagressive because they have to learn to survive in a no quarter held or given world. some might not like fighting with hands and feet or words but still we are not the damsils in trouble that most people pictor us as



The little world you are <b>"survivng in now" </b>does not even remotely comprehend what a SEAL has to survive in.

<b>If you are a teenager in my respectful opinion:</b>
I think you are a typical teenage girl going through the normal teenage state. I think you do have your dream set to high and I'd hope you do not let yourself get down over this. Women will never be SEALs. It's not a "sexist" act, they are just not cut out for the job. As many others have said.

Good luck to you.

[sirenx]

- women are naturally emotionally weaker than men


Them is fighting words pal...what the hell do you mean by emotionally weaker? Do you think we can't handle the trauma of war or something? Last I checked there were plenty of women in some pretty damn horrible wars...they were civilians. After every one is done killing eachother they are often the ones who pick up the pieces of what is left of their families and try to move on. how well would you get over being gang raped by a bunch of soldiers and never telling anyone or getting any justice because male members of your family would probably just kill you if they knew?

There is alot of stuff you know missing from your Y chromosomes that we women have...and no data to back up saying that we are "emotionally" weaker" Thats a very subjective word too pal cause there is no gauge by which to measure. Who was it that ruled britain in peace for the longest period that country had seen in hundreds of years???? Elizabeth. She didn't go off half ****ed and let her ego and her emotions get in the way and start fights like the neighboring countries kept doing, she kept her head cool and her emotions in check... Cleopatra now there is a prime example of a wmen keeping her wits about her while the men are killing eachother...

then you must consider that we also don't have a **** to do our thinking for us . (disclaimer: I do not think that all men think with their **** s.) and compared to men we hardly ever freak out because we 're angry and kill a bunch of people. With so much of the violent crime committed by Men how can you say we are weaker?

%75 of all murdered women are murdered by their mates...cause their mates couldn't contol their emotions

I don't have the statistic about violence in womens prisons vs. mens but it is signifigantly less....unnecessary violence is emotional weakness and men are far more prone to that than us. We might cry and watch chick flicks but we survive emotionally just as well if not better than men.

BTW I agree with the rest of your statement

[diesel828]

I can't believe this topic is still getting so many responses.

[RoninSamurai]

Last I checked there were plenty of women in some pretty damn horrible wars...they were civilians. After every one is done killing eachother they are often the ones who pick up the pieces of what is left of their families and try to move on.


women aren't the only ones that have to move on after a war. come on, that's weak.

There is alot of stuff you know missing from your Y chromosomes that we women have...and no data to back up saying that we are "emotionally" weaker". Thats a very subjective word too pal cause there is no gauge by which to measure.

then you must consider that we also don't have a **** to do our thinking for us .


exactly how would you measure that?


Cleopatra now there is a prime example of a wmen keeping her wits about her while the men are killing eachother...


Cleopatra killed herself with an Egyptian Asp after her lover died. That doesn't sound like someone who is coolheaded and rational to me.



%75 of all murdered women are murdered by their mates...cause their mates couldn't contol their emotions


where is this coming from?



I don't have the statistic about violence in womens prisons vs. mens but it is signifigantly less....unnecessary violence is emotional weakness and men are far more prone to that than us.


my cousin worked in a female prison in nothern PA for a couple of years as an administrative assistant, and BELIVE ME the violent crime is much higher in female prisons than male prisons.

Now let me ask you something. I'm not going to ask about how far you can carry a man that weighs x pounds or who you would be willing to kill. Surely there is some woman who could do the job. But answer me this:

Everyone knows that morale is vital to the effectiveness of ANY military operation. So if a vast majority if not all of the active SEALs and other spec forces have said that they WILL NOT work with women, are they not bad for morale? A part of any job is making sure that the people you work with can depend on you. If the SEALs of today don't trust women no matter how qualified, how are they NOT harmful simply BECAUSE they're women.

No it's not fair but life isn't fair.

[Doug]

"Females in The SEAL Teams" was actually a topic for one of our "Core Values" classes in BUD/S...

[sirenx]

No you are right women aren't the only ones surviving war and icking up the pieces and men aren't the only ones either, often though as in most war torn countries there are alot more grown women left than men because the men are the ones killing each other..unless they get lucky and take out an all female school or other such institution during their fighting...the point being is that we have and will continue to be able to handle the emotional crisis of life as well as any man.

The **** comment was me being pissed off, it was just to make a point that men behave weekly as well. And the fact that it cannot be measured is the same as not being able to measure womens emotional "weaknes" I have personal reasons for thinking that most men are in fact swayed in their thinkin gdue to their sex drive but I will be the first to admit that i am probably not terribly objective about that.

The %75 statistic was gathered by a news show produced by A&E called the justice files (they show their source every time they quotes statistics...and report the state of crime and punishment in the US) . Every year statistics on crime are gathered from every agency in every state concerning various crimes, who committed them and the sentence that they were given for it. I do not have the name of the agency that compiles the information but it is gathered from all area of law enforcement and judicial records....to find that doing a quick search on the internet should yield them)

This particular episode and another documentary that was done on HBO which backed up this statement were about the inordinantly longer sentences given to women who murdered their mates...particularly after being horribly abused by them for many years...they on average get a sentence of 12.5 years longer than men who commit the same crimes. They provided this statistic as part of the information that they gathered as well as alot of other crime stats (but these are true stats...they either were convicted or they weren't she was either their mate or ex mate or they weren't) they are not the most up to date ones however as this show is about two years old and the stats were taken over a several year period .

The statement about the womens prisons was based on information I gathered for a term paper I wrote on prison sociology. I interviewed numerous CO's who had worked at various types of prisons both male and female. They all said that the job was easier in the womens prisons as usually (and that was because local gang politics etc> can affect the rate of violence in one prison more than another) there were much less physical violence perpertrated at the co's and much fewer lock down situations. They also do not adhere to strict rules of segregation and communication flow relatively freely between the different established groups so here are typically less conflicts amongst the female prisoners. (are you surprised that the women would be willin got sit down and talk about it?)

They did however say that the women form tighter romantic relationships with eachother and the jealousies that errupt due to this...in their opinion was the reasons most of the conflicts between prisoners occured in the female prisons. These types of crimes were often very brutal and spontaneous....You can't get stats on that but there are ones for lock down frequency and numbers of killings per capita...i myself would be interested in looking up the current ones if you like i will send my findings to you.

I also participated in a prisoner out reach program that had me and a few other students going out to calipatria state prison three saturdays a month for the entire 9 month school term. Calipatria is a level four prison housing hard male criminals. There were very few times when they were not on lock down...i think about 5 of the times total. Lockdown is always imposed due to major acts of violence and the gangs were at war the entire time. Sometimes we made the drive for nothing at all as the incident would occur that morning or when we were there causing a immediate shutdown and no prisoners are allowed visiting at that time as visitor are not allowed in the prison for fear of a hostage situation. Many of theses times we took the oportunity to have discussions with the CO's (this is where i interviewed the ones for my paper)

Cleopatra did kill herself as you say, It was her final act of independence because her execution had already been dispatched by the romans. She had avoided being murdered several times before this and had played every card in the deck before putting the asp to her breast (actually historians believe it was really a cobra and so does steve Irwin :) I hapen to like her "I will not let them take me" stance. Like the Jews of Masada she denied the Romans the pleasure of killing her, Or in the case of some of the jews enslavement. There is a great A&E biography on her that is really fascinating. I happen to be a big fan of ole cleo so I havbe read alot about her...she was a dynamite lady.

As far as the rest of what you say I agree...and if you had read any of my other posts you would see that. Women should NOT BE SEALS in my opinion...specifically because they do not have the strength to do so and for the morale and hygien issues posted hear...i have never disputed that. My ONLY argument is with the " we are emotionally weaker than men" statement. We are not. We have suffered through the human condition as well as you men and in fact make up more if only slightly, half of the human population of this planet.

[Timber]

ok heres a little bulleted list why women shouldnt be in combat:

- men are naturally more aggresive than women
- men are naturally physically stronger than women
- women are naturally emotionally weaker than men
- the men and women may have sex and you don't want sex in the field because a woman can get pregnant plus their may be emotions that could get in the way during battle
- hygeine (unless women would take showers and get rid of their bodily wastes in front of the other men)


Here is a little humor----but true points to this little list.

- men are naturally more aggresive than women (in bed yes, but have you delt with me when I am PMSing?--We are meaner!)


-men are naturally physically stronger than women (Good, then get your 'arse out and mow the lawn and stop itching about the honey do list! hehehe

- women are naturally emotionally weaker than men (uh oh, hope you ran for cover after you said this! Emotionally weaker? No, but more emotional YES. I never saw a man sit in a hospital bed for 18 weeks of labor pain and complications from having a child. Go through natural child birth, have the thing bite your ---you knows twelve times a day and a year later say -----HONEY, CAN WE HAVE ANOTHER ONE? Most men would say HECK NO NOT AGAIN if it were up to them!)

As for the sex thing, yes this happens and yes it does get in the way of duty some times. However, for as many times as EMOTIONS get in the way I pose the following questions------How many times has the love of a good woman HELPED? Just as much if not more. Now frog hoggin, that aint love, that just screwing around!



And as for humping rounds. I did this for a week and by the end of the week I was glad to be done with it. When a call for fire came in we would work our butts off (okay so I was the only woman in the howie), there were times when the call for fire came so often and went on so long that it was all I could do to get the 100 pound round onto the stinking tray. Thus, if had to----yes could------but for as long as the guys-----NO! Sending the bra down range on the last mission was rather fun though!



Never, ever even in an exoskeleton should we serve directly-----we belong in support of not in combat. It's not about the dirt, long hours, nor the job----as with anything, you have to remember there are also men who are out there and can't hang----we all know who these are!. I can deal with the dirt, try being pad lad for a whole day refueling the friggin birds with that stinking dust getting lodged in places you never knew you had-------

Hunters, gatherers------this is a bit cliche for todays world. It may have had a role in our evolution----but we should put that behind us don't you think? We evolved above it! Barefoot and in the kitchen?----------Nope, that was the June Cleaver phase of evolution!


Okay all things aside, everyone have a great weekend kay!

Timber

[frogman12]

Now look everyone...It is a proven fact that women may not be emotionally weaker, but they do have stronger emotional attachments. This a both a good and bad thing put in different circumstances. As far as the physical side of it, an extremely fit (emphasis on extremely) women could most likely be able to do most of the day to day work load of a SEAL, but as many people have pointed out, they may not be able to preform feats that require exceptional body strength that only males have been granted. If a women can make it through training (which is not likely do to the physical demands that require strength in areas where women are not as gifted as men), more power to them, i just doubt they will have a good time in the teams. I think we all need to remember that some women may be more powerful than some men, but there have been few women in history that could match the strength and endurance of a Navy SEAL. I know that this discussion will go on as long as the military says that women are NOT allowed, but I would guarentee that IF they did lift this restriction only a handful of women would even think about trying to get to BUDS, and virtually none would make it.

God made men and women both in his form but this different traits. Men are known to be focused, strong, almost emotionally detatched, whereas women are able to do many things at once, more able to care for others, and physically weaker. (This is a generalization, no He-woman bite my head off please.)

[LordAfflicted]

I'd just like to say one thing. I don't post offen, but I think my perspective might mean something.

Women AREN'T genetically more important then men. You could have 1,000 women, but if you don't have a guy in there somewhere, the species aint going anywhere.

[fish78]

frogman 12,
You might consider changing your call sign.

[kevin22ca]

lol will the moderator please delete this ridiculous topic lol

[Charger]

I hope that women will be able to join SEALs because after all it's the will and ability that counts not the gender. Some women can be better then some guys at fighting and so I can't see why they shouldn't be able to join SEALs. Good luck sealgirl. Hope you will be accepted as a SEAL.

[Charger]

The SEAL that can lift 400 pounds is well trained. Sealgirl can lift over 130lb how much can you lift?

[Gokusfusion]

The SEAL that can lift 400 pounds is well trained. Sealgirl can lift over 130lb how much can you lift?


Lifitng is alot different from bench pressing. Lifitng you use your legs, and back. Bench pressing is shoulders and arms only.. Since you asked me how much I can <b>lift</b> I am going to take that as you are asking me how much I bench... If that's the question, I bench 285 lbs. NOT LIFT, but bench. I probably could lift more since my legs and back would assist me. But I don't know exactly how high I could, or how far I'd carry it... I am not superman you know.

[Gokusfusion]

I hope that women will be able to join SEALs because after all it's the will and ability that counts not the gender.


Last time I am going to touch this question ever.. I am going to repeat everything once again.. Women are not physically strong enough to be a SEAL. They can not carry a half lifed 240 pound man out of the fire zone, while having to exchange fire at the same time holding a m4 in their right hand, and having the body on their left shoulder.

BUD/S for one requires strength that a women can not create.



Some women can be better then some guys at fighting and so I can't see why they shouldn't be able to join SEALs.


The guys are trained to fight... And still 90% of the men are strong and naturally better at fighting..


Hope you will be accepted as a SEAL.


Not gonna happen.

I am not trying to show disrespect to any ladie on this board, their are wonderful female military personels out there that do a great job at serving the country. Every ladie on this board probably understands where I am coming from, so no disrespect was being shown here. So please do not miss interpuret this post. Thank you.

[arc59]

I hope that women will be able to join SEALs because after all it's the will and ability that counts not the gender. Some women can be better then some guys at fighting and so I can't see why they shouldn't be able to join SEALs. Good luck sealgirl. Hope you will be accepted as a SEAL.



You folks are a hoot. I don't mean any disrespect to the women here, but come on! There two kinds of worlds: the way you'd like things to be, and the way things really are. "I'd like to teach the world to sing...in perfect harmony"...it just ain't gonna happen!

How can any responsible person in their right mind ever think that a woman can serve on a SEAL Team? Key word: TEAM, and it's a known fact that SEALs do not want to have to depend on a woman, especially when lives are on the line in the heat of battle. End of story. Can we please move on?!

BushMstr

[downwith_binladen]

I say if you have a dream follow it, but i do have to say it will be hard to convense who ever you have to to be able to try out. But like I said follow your dreams, theres always a chance.

[downwith_binladen]

Well the thing is that the SEALs have been men only every since the SEALs came together, so I think that it could really do some damage to the teams, because some men could be really effected by this.I have seen some pretty well fitted women, but i think that a woman dosent have the nautural instinc to do it.But hey i dont wanna sound like the bad guy here but like i said in the post before, you can still try, no since in not giving it a shot. plus its mostly mentle power to get you through with it.

[tfwmissions]

I'm curious to know the meaning of your name, downwith_binladen??? I haft to admit that it only sounds like to me that you are taking his side. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[nkro]

I'm curious to know the meaning of your name, downwith_binladen??? I haft to admit that it only sounds like to me that you are taking his side. Please correct me if I am wrong.

DOWN WITH TFW! DOWN WITH TFW! DOWN WITH TFW!

[Gokusfusion]

I don't like this name either. I find it very offending.

[COXSWAIN]

Dear SeaGirl,

The dream can only last until you're 28. That's the age that the dream ends for everybody without a waiver.

[downwith_binladen]

it dosent mean like that it means, down as in die, binladen as in DIE BIN LADEN. not that hard, but i guess i can see how it could seem the other way i never thought of it like that, im gonna change it.

[tfwmissions]

Thanks for clearing that up josh! I'm sure it helped more people out than just me! God bless!

[sealpup121]

downwith_binladen??? I haft to admit that it only sounds like to me that you are taking his side. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Just curious here as well Tfwm, How can you interpret "down with bin Laden" as having anything to do with support for bin Laden? When the Palestinians or others yell out "down with American" do you interpret that as support as well?

[roula]

Who was it that ruled britain in peace for the longest period that country had seen in hundreds of years???? Elizabeth. She didn't go off half ****ed and let her ego and her emotions get in the way and start fights like the neighboring countries kept doing, she kept her head cool and her emotions in check...


Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not supporting the statement made about, "women are naturally emotionally weaker than men" but in all fairness it wasn't just because Elizabeth didn't let her ego or emotions get in the way that helped her rule Britain for so long or "in peace". What she possessed was intelligence, determination, shrewdness as well as the wisdom in employing capable and distinguished men for her advisement council. Even though they were constantly perplexed by her habit of waiting to the last minute to make decisions they gave her their loyalty and undying devotion. She was a very intelligent proving that she could be most calm and calculating in her political matters, choosing her ministers well and most of her battles wisely, but she also was capricious and had a horrendous temper. Her lack of religious fanaticism as well as a compromise between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism during her reign probably saved England from years of religious wars that England's neighbors suffered. Elizabeth's reign is usually seen as being one of the most 'glorious' in English history but it wasn't all that "peaceful". It was one of considerable danger and difficulty both at home and abroad. During her long reign the country suffered from high prices and severe economic depression. Wars during her reign are estimated in being some of the most costly of their time. She left large debts to her successor.

[roula]

Cleopatra did kill herself as you say, It was her final act of independence because her execution had already been dispatched by the romans. She had avoided being murdered several times before this and had played every card in the deck before putting the asp to her breast (actually historians believe it was really a cobra and so does steve Irwin :) I hapen to like her "I will not let them take me" stance. Like the Jews of Masada she denied the Romans the pleasure of killing her,



Actually to some it can also be seen as an act of desperation. I mean the Roman Emperor Octavian took great pleasure in explaining to her that before she was to be executed she was to be humiliated and displayed as a slave in the cities that she ruled over, a punishment that in Cleo's eyes was worse then death. Her fate was kind of ironic because it was the same punishment she gave her sister, Arsinoe, right before she had her killed. Realizing that Octavian had no interest what so ever in Cleo and seeing her end is near she decided to committee suicide.

As to how she committed suicide, there are several stories that are floating around out there and it depends on what a person wants to believe. The most famous of them all is that she was bitten by an asp which is an Egyptian cobra also known as Naja haje. The Egyptian religion declared that death by a snakebite would secure ones immortality and in doing so Cleo would have achieved her dying wish to never be forgotten. Others believe that death by a snakebite would have been a very painful way to go and since Egyptians were skilled in concocting potions and medicines its also possible that she poisoned herself. Of course seeing as to how Cleopatra lived her life a bite by an asp makes a much better legend then poison does.

[fish78]

downwith_binladen??? I haft to admit that it only sounds like to me that you are taking his side. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Just curious here as well Tfwm, How can you interpret "down with bin Laden" as having anything to do with support for bin Laden? When the Palestinians or others yell out "down with American" do you interpret that as support as well?


'pup ...LMAO,
The generation gap is showing...I went through the same machinations...Its like" I'm down with dat bin Ladin"., Sadly, this generation speaks a different language. The ever so up to date with the lingo, fish...

[sealpup121]

'pup ...LMAO,
The generation gap is showing...I went through the same machinations...Its like" I'm down with dat bin Ladin"., Sadly, this generation speaks a different language. The ever so up to date with the lingo, fish

Fish I'm so glad some one is up to date on the lingo. Hell when this generation hears those chants from those that hate our guts, I hope they know the difference. Fish here is my latest(besides this) generation gap. Wife and I were talking to a sales girl, we said something in reference to the Movie "10" and Bo Derek. She ( the sales girl) didn't have a clue about the movie or Bo.

[MORTUS]

Wholly, Chit.
How is it so Difficult for People to just understand the Fact's that have not changed
Will not change anytime soon & Get the HeII over it., Pup just tagged on yours it was the Last.

Women ARE NOT ALLOWED IN the "SEALS"....PERIOD...

What is so Bloody Difficult for these people to Understand?
And Jesus, my Girlfriend’s 12yr old Daughter Weighing 98lb's can press 140........
Doesn't mean she wants to be a "SEAL"

Freedom of Speech, well Sister you've had it, Get over it & keep your Day Job....
Not trying to cause a Ruckus, the Real Deal's have put this Moot Point to rest Many Times Over & Over & Over
And some young pushy person like's to come in here and rekindle a flame that Does Not Exist & Will NOT EXIST.

All you people that can't understand GET A LIFE & Move on quite wasting other people’s time.
If you want to work on Women's Right's in the Military Get in it become a Lawyer & Argue it in court & congress
Till your Blue in the FACE.........

Being a MOOT point somehow this has become one of the Longest Forum's..

Sorry to add to it Gent's, but what a Waist of Bloody time. KiIIing a Dead horse twice is good measure, but this Horse keeps
Getting back up.....8-)

Happy Post Thanksgiving & Happy Holiday's to Everyone.
There are many things’ to be thankful for in this World, Leave the damn Horse DOWN........Oh and keep the Day Job.......


Mort Out...

[sealpup121]

Mortus, I would have loved to shower with SEALettes. You've got to admit that would make showering with a friend a little more interesting in the RVN. Maybe there is a lesson to learn about this topic we can use to keep life going indefinately, inject this topic for immortalty studies.

[CadetKepke87]

Women in combat does not work.

Personaly I dont think that females becoming Navy SEALs, has anything to do with physical strength, or mental strength.
The fact that women fall in love with men, and men fall in love with women, is problem enough! Throughout life people become emotionally attached to other people (you know where im getting).
Think of it this way, if you were "in a relationship" with a member of your team, and that person was captured by the enemy, you would want to go back and save that person even if it meant you would die (just thinking that can cause problems). By doing so, you put your team at extreme risk, AND FAILING YOU MISSION IS NOT AN OPTION, its just not what SEALs do. SEALs dont just go around and blow stuff up for the hell of it. Most SEAL missions have to do with situations in which if they result in failure, city's can be blown up, or a war can be started (not necessarily involving the united states).
The only posible way for females to become Navy SEALs, is for complete segregation between females and males, during training and missions.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------I apologize if somehting like this was already posted, I did not read all of the posts

-Kepke Out-

[A62]

I would have loved to shower with SEALettes


Yup, But then you would have been 33% less efficient. "Studies" show that after havinfg fun, men are 33% less efficient. That's why the old Warrior Monks in China were celibate. LOL
A62 over

[MORTUS]

Hey, pup.
After your comment I was thinking of TEAM moral during a co-ed Hell week.
Especially the Mud Flat's, just imagine the comradere of the troop's during the centipede,
or the king of the hill. All that closeness and gropping, hell men are men. 8-) even after sleep deprevation....

I would'nt mind being one of the 1st to try a Co-Ed Hellweek myself.... LOL.......

Sign Me Up SKIPPER.......,,,,,

[sealpup121]

after and during sleep deprevation wow, talk about just following you instints! Mud puppy sex evolutions yeah!!!!! Now that is motivational.

[dboyle]

What is so Bloody Difficult for these people to Understand?
And Jesus, my Girlfriend’s 12yr old Daughter Weighing 98lb's can press 140........
Doesn't mean she wants to be a "SEAL"

12 yr old, 98lb girl benching 140? Why is a 12 year old benching in the first place? Lifting at such a young age can stunt her growth.

[dboyle]

Mud puppy sex evolutions yeah!!!!!


Might want to reconsider this statement realizing the type of woman capable of these feats. Unless, of course, you like the brute, husky type. ;)

[sealpup121]

Might want to reconsider this statement realizing the type of woman capable of these feats. Unless, of course, you like the brute, husky type. ;)

dboyle I work in a business where some of the ladies are very shapely, young, beautiful and strong. Many could kick the hell out of many men who swagger down the beach. If they wanted to roll in the mud with me and they can carry the weight, I got no problem dancin in a war zone with them. Hell I fought some that could kick *** and chew beetlenut. Quite a few were very high in the Vietcong infrasrtucture and we never knew it until after Vietnam. Like the extent of the tunnels of Cu Chi. Many times we/you/us (not personal at you) underestimate what a woman is capable of, I try to never underestimate anyone. Man or woman.

[sealpup121]

Now can we send this moot discussion to the barn?. As my buddy Chickenhawk and others have said, until congress changes it's collective mind, it is not gonna happen in the foreseeable future.

[Mac679]

Now can we send this moot discussion to the barn?


Every time I read this discussion the more I want to go down to the motorpool lay my head under a track and tell the driver to pivot steer...


And to whoever above mentioned Armor and Artillery as Combat Support, you're off by a few. Tankers and Grunts are the only two members of Convential Combat Arms that directly engage the enemy head to head, face to face. And the cannon****ers get more than their share with counter battery fire and, in Vietnam, assaults on fire bases...



As my buddy Chickenhawk and others have said, until congress changes it's collective mind, it is not gonna happen in the foreseeable future.


The conversation should have died after Chickenhawk's first reply...

[arc59]

The conversation should have died after Chickenhawk's first reply...


...and to that I would add...please, please, please..stop the insanity.

[kevin22ca]

LOL will someone please delete this ridiculous topic lol