Supplements Eh?

[Ghillieman06]

Ok here it is. My dad and my hockey coach work together at the prison and they are both pressuring me into taking creatine supplements to bulk up for hockey. My question is should I start taking it right now about 6 months before I enlist if at all,and will I lose physical performance after I stop taking it? I keep hearing mixed comments from both military personell and civilians so if anyone could clear that up for me that would be great.

[snow85]

there are several threads on this topic, so i recommend that you do a search.

i also recommend that unless your dad and your coach are going to put you under the care of a physician, that you stay as far away from creatine as possible.

it's not safe.

do the site research and then come back if you have more questions.

-S

[Ryn0]

There are far more positive aspects to taking creatine than negative. In all the years that I have used it (off and on) I have never experienced anything negative from it. Creatine IS good for your muscles. It is a naturally occurring substance found in your body.

The question is, does one need it? No. But will it help? Yes. If you do decide to take some form of creatine, ie. CellTech, you dont need to take the double dose for the first week or so. They call that the loading phase. Just take the standard everyday normal dose they say.

Remember creatine alone wont be a magical solution. You still need to eat proper and pump the fluids in. Carbs are just as important as protien. Anyway enough of my talk, I hope this helps.

[lisalynne10]

The question is, does one need it? No. But will it help? Yes


People will use creatine supplements to enhance the storage of CP (creatine phospate), a high energy compound in muscles. Creatine may improve performance by increasing muscle strength and size, cell hydration, or glycogen loading capacity, but at what costs? Creatine supplements could pose risks for athletes with kidney disease or other conditions. The studies of long-term creatine use are not available.

Red meat is rich in creatine, but doesn't touch the amount that people have been taking supplementally (5 to 30 grams). On average pork, chicken and beef provide about 65 - 180 milligrams per ounce.)

And creatine makes your farts REALLY stink! LOL!

[Burner1]

I would suggest you check to see what is on the banned list. Before you take any supplement. If I'm not mistaken I think Creatine would get you booted from BUD/S anyways. I'm sure SandFrog could help ya out with that. Maintain the proper diet and bust your *** with the right training program.

[meshuggah]

There are many diffrent forms of creatine, some do diffrent things to your body. Some will put a lot of water into your muscles, which isn't good for the type of endurance you need for BUD/s. But others will help restore other things, I'm currently using cratine ethyl ester, it replaces PTP. I took another type of creatine which made my muscle fibers more dense, I believe it was micronized creatine. As far as training for BUD/s and the guide lines they provide as what is acceptable. Look at your training as a time line, you want to get as strong as possible without losing your speed and agility. Do what you need to do to achieve this, then in the months before actually leaving for training ween yourself from the suppliments. If you're going to bootcamp they'll get you off the suppliments and on a full diet of galley food. mmmmmmmm.

[sandfrog]

Snow Quote:
"i also recommend that unless your dad and your coach are going to put you under the care of a physician, that you stay as far away from creatine as possible. it's not safe."

Holy crap, how do you cross the street in the morning?

It's plenty safe, although it's not allowed at BUD/S.

NO SUPPLEMENTS are allowed at BUD/S period, unless specifically cleared through medical.

Sure there are benefits to taking it, it's not going to make you superman but it won't make you significantly weaker once you're off it either. There are several kinds; the monohydrate was the original formula and was the one that most people were having the dehydration problems with. Then came glycerol phosphate which doesn't dehydrate you as much as the previous and is about 90% as effective. Now there's a new formula called creatine ethyl ester malate which in my opinion doesn't work quite as well as either of the previous versions but has zero noticable dehydration effects.

It's really not going to help you that much anyway, the strength gains you'll see on it are barely noticable, nothing that you couldn't get by fine tuning your diet and honing your work out program. I'd recommend leaving it alone for now and just focus on upping the intensity of your work outs. You'll see more gains by exploring the mind muscle connection than by taking creatine.

Again, this is only my opinion, I've done no research on the subject other than my own experiences of being on and off it since '99. Maybe someone who's actually looked up the data side of it can give you some more technical advice.

[mtgman]

currently using cratine ethyl ester, it replaces PTP.

Same here. What kind?

[meshuggah]

I actually bought the wal-mart brand. I got thier NOS also. For both these products from GNC you'll pay $160+. At wal-mart for stuff with exactly the same ingredients you'll pay $40. I took some of the NO2 from GNC, the wal mart brand is just as potent if not more.

[In_vinciBle]

Sand frog I was just wondering if you had been to BUDs

[Ghillieman06]

Thanks for all the helpful replies. The stuff my dad has is called No-Xplode but i think ill just stay off it for now and bump up the intensity a little more. Plus I eat meat like a fiend so thats probably helping out a bit. Colorado College all the way baby!!!

[snow85]

SF Quote:

"Holy crap, how do you cross the street in the morning?

It's plenty safe, although it's not allowed at BUD/S. "

without your help, but thank you, your curiosity is simply charming.


Ghillieman06--

sure, creatine is manufactured by your body, but not in the doses that you take orally.

there is no evidence that it is safe enough to be passing it out in the locker room. there is, however, evidence of all kinds of problems stemming from creatine use, ESPECIALLY among high school athletes:

(from a thread on this topic, aug 2003, here's what i told that guy, and i'm telling you the same thing:)


actually, believe it or not, there are new studies out that indicate that creatine isn't as bad for you as once believed. creatine is actually manufactured by your body, but in small doses, compared to what is in the supplement. (studies done on division 1 football teams, during 3-a-day practices.)

however, since the jury is still out, your best choice, and your buddy's, would still be to stay away. possible side effects include, but are not limited to:

dehydration, muscle cramping, (both caused by 'excessive' retention of water, which throws off your electrolyte balance), decreased heat tolerance, higher incidence of injuries to muscle, bone, jooints, and connective tissue, (due to such a rapid increase in strength/mass), and yes, an impact on renal and liver function, muscle and liver enzyme problems, issues with blood volume, and blood pressure.

all are very good reasons to stay away.


now, since i actually have looked up and studied the data side of it, if you want articles on the topic, ghillieman06, i'll post or email links for you.

-S

[mtgman]

I actually bought the wal-mart brand

Smart choice. That's what I'm going to do next. I got suckered into GNC.

Ghillieman, Snow is full of BS. Creatine is not going to kill you. Take it if you want to, don't take it if you don't feel comfortable. Either way you still have to work hard in the gym to see any gains.

[sandfrog]

Snow Quote:
"possible side effects include, but are not limited to:"

"dehydration, muscle cramping, (both caused by 'excessive' retention of water, which throws off your electrolyte balance), decreased heat tolerance, higher incidence of injuries to muscle, bone, jooints, and connective tissue, (due to such a rapid increase in strength/mass), and yes, an impact on renal and liver function, muscle and liver enzyme problems, issues with blood volume, and blood pressure."




Sounds like my morning coffee.

Everything has risk, hell, drinking too much water can kill you.

[snow85]

Ghillieman, Snow is full of BS. Creatine is not going to kill you.


say what you want about me,-- since you somehow know what my quals are, (haha), but this is an extremely dangerous statement to be making, considering that the MEDICAL community has not concluded its research on creatine, and considering that creatine has been linked to several deaths at all levels of sport.

where are you getting this gross misinformation? remember-- you are a 26 year old adult, hereby advising a minor to ingest a supplement that may or may not be safe. where are your facts?

Ghillie-- i'll have your article links later on this weekend.

[snow85]

1. I never said that Creatine can kill you, although there have been deaths linked to Creatine.

2. Does Creatine have its intended effect? Yes, specifically in high performance athletes, which you are not, it does help to reduce muscle fatigue—when taken properly. (This is not necessarily according to the bottle.) Your initial mass increase will be due to water retention. Yes, it does achieve its intended effect, but as Lisalynne10 said—at what cost?


I’ll tell you this: I took both Celebrex and Vioxx when I was in high school and later on in college. I took Vioxx as recently as late 2001. At the time, both drugs were experimental and given to me by my orthopedic surgeon. Note: not ‘just’ a doctor, but a doctor who specialized in the very thing for which I was taking the medication. He’s also the one who pulled me off as soon as he heard the news of the *possible* damage that they could do. As you now know, years later, these drugs are the subject of several class-action lawsuits. The same thing with the ‘endurance enhancing’ ephedra. (subject of lawsuits.)

Did the Celebrex and Vioxx work? YES! They achieved their intended, and my desired, effect. I was able to perform harder, faster, stronger, and longer, but those things are not worth the damage that they would have done to my heart.

There is no way that your coach has access to the information that the medical community does, and if he’s like the many, many football coaches I know, it’s doubtful that he truly cares. Additionally, if the medical community is still out on this one, it's wise to go with what they DO know, and ARE saying-- which is that until the long-term effects are studied, minors need to STAY AWAY. You'll see that time and time again at the end of these abstracts.There are reasons for that.

Don’t forget—the effect that creatine has on your pecs, your biceps, and your quads—is the effect that it will have on your heart. Your heart is a muscle too.

The fact that creatine is manufactured by your body does not make it safe as a supplement.

The fact that creatine does help you achieve its intended effect does not make it safe.

Article abstracts for your review. I pulled these from Pubmed because it saved me the hassle of researching all the indivivdual journals. There is enough information here for you to find and read the articles on your own, but if you have questions regarding the actual science or things that you don’t understand, I will be happy to answer them for you:


I recommend that you read this first article—published by the Mayo Clinic just this past October:

Mayo Clin Proc. 2005 Oct;80(10):1307-15

Cardiovascular toxicities of performance-enhancing substances in sports.

Dhar R, Stout CW, Link MS, Homoud MK, Weinstock J, Estes NA 3rd.

Department of Clinical Care Research, Institute for Clinical Research and Health Policy Studies, Tufts University-New England Medical Center, Boston, MA 02111, USA.


Creatine supplementation in Wisconsin high school athletes.

McGuine TA, Sullivan JC, Bernhardt DA.

University of Wisconsin Hospital Sports Medicine Center, USA



In addition to other supplements, linked to seizures:


Clin Toxicol (Phila). 2005;43(1):23-30.
Seizures reported in association with use of dietary supplements.

Haller CA, Meier KH, Olson KR.

University of California, San Francisco, San Francisco, California 94143, USA



Creatine Supplementation Study in Competitive Swimmers that shows NO change in Muscle Mass:



Creatine: are the benefits worth the risk?


I had a teammate who had compartment pressure, escalating to compartment syndrome. It requires a surgical release. Very, very, very painful, and frequently initially diagnosed as shin splints. See article below:

Elevated Anterior Compartment Pressure in the Leg After Creatine Supplementation: A Controlled Case Report.

Potteiger JA, Randall JC, Schroeder C, Magee LM, Hulver MW.

University of Kansas, Lawrence, KS.



Does oral creatine supplementation improve strength? A meta-analysis.

Dempsey RL, Mazzone MF, Meurer LN.

Dept of Family Community Medicine, Medical College of Wisconsin, 8701 Watertown Plank Road, Milwaukee, WI 53226, USA.

Changes in human muscle transverse relaxation following short-term creatine supplementation.

Saab G, Marsh GD, Casselman MA, Thompson RT.

Department of Medical Biophysics, The University of Western Ontario, London, Ontario, Canada.


There are TONS of studies like this out there. If you want more, let me know.

[meshuggah]

And the bottom line about the internet is that you can find a pro and con for everything, and some of them have a few letters behind their names. Team guys use suppliments, professional athlete's use suppliments. Sandfrog's advice about the mental connection rings true, if you rely on these things it won't make the same mental connection as some hard work. Even if what you're taking is just a placebo you'll still believe it makes you stronger. If you're dead set on finding out about it then take it for a cycle and see what it does to you, 3 months won't send you to a dialasis machine or give you psirosis.

[Edited to remove personal slams]

[ThurstonHowell]

Snow, I read a lot of articles from various med journals, but its been a really long time. As I recall most of the initial research was done by a guy named Greenbaum or something and published in various swedish journals. They're huge into athletic medicine over there. Other than the serious affect on kidneys the negative affects of creatine are debatable at best. Oh yeah, some study came out a couple months ago that said creatine supplementation actually improved thinking ability - I don't recall if it was short term memory, problem solving or whatnot.

I use creatine sometimes. A month here or there, but I dont stay on it. Its hard on your kidneys. That being said - if Idrink a half-pot of coffee with 5gr of creatine mixed in I can lift like I'm possessed for an hour and a half. Yeah snow I know what you may be thinking - coffee is a diuretic and creatine causes water retention. I've never noticed that caffine diminished the effects of the creatine at all. Like I said though, dont worry about it for BUDS - it wont help and could possibley hurt you.

Snow, you mentioned doing cleans and snatches on another post as I recall. Are you into olympic style lifting?

[snow85]

TH--

We actually observed the effects of Cr at the cellular level in my exercise physiology lab-- interesting stuff, to say the least.

I tried to pull the most recent articles I could find for Ghillie, but the conclusions are still always the same.

As far as the kidneys, there is a difference in measuring for Cr and Creatine Kinase, so all of the articles I pulled on that are still out too. However, it does stand to reason that if yo u are retaining water, you may not have enough water for proper kidney function. Again, the jury is still out.

I've seen dehydrated athletes-- your muscles all contract (painful, if you imagine your quads AND hamstrings contracting at the same time), and you basically curl up into a little ball. You brain doesn't function properly either. You get an IV and a trip to the hospital for a fun-filled day of rest and rehydration.

I saw the article on memory 'improvement,' but didn't include it here because it is inconclusive. There are also studies on the effects of Cr on a brain that is 'having trouble <insert your malady of choice here>,' and I didn't include those for the same reasons. Cr most certainly doesn't make you smarter.

Sounds like you're cycling your supplements-- which is a good thing. You're also an adult who has the resources and the wherewithal to make a decision that you feel is best for you. It's completley different when you advise a kid who is being pressured by his coach and his dad-- that's a LOT of pressure, in essence the weight of the world on a high school athlete, to do something that may or may not be safe. [Which I know you did not do.]

Btw, there is a study out about a 20 year old kid who was taking 20g/day...... and they think it was a contributing factor to his death. This is why it always needs to be done under the care of a physician or knowledgable allied heath care provider.

Throughout my years, I've taken supplements here and there in the off-season, but when it comes to crunch time, I know that I had better be able to perform and perform well without them. There's nothing like the 0430 'be here in 10 minutes, you've been randomly selected' phone call. Everything rides on that. It was never worth it to me to sacrifice my personal integrity, my future, the futures of my teammates, or depending on how hard the hammer came down, the reputation of the team and the university, all for my personal gain. I could have been the best athlete in the world, but without a place to perform, I had nothing. Why risk that?


When I was in school, we were required to do olympic lifts for core strength. Those are always a barrel of laughs at 0500, pre-coffee. Yes, I still do them, but only as a means of rounding out the workout and keeping myself fit and balanced in every way possible. Being the best that I can be is where my interest lies. Power lifting just isn't the sport for me. I never competed and never want to.

[wonderfokinman]

There are many diffrent forms of creatine, some do diffrent things to your body


Try scifit kre-alklyn you dont have to take as much and side effects are rare.If your worried getting in trouble at bud/s then dont take the safe route and dont take anything.

[wonderfokinman]

also try the forums at bodybuilding.com theres alot of guys with first hand knowledge about what works and what doesnt as well as side effects.You should check there before you buy any new product especially protein shakes.On that note i reccomend gold standard protein, its pricey but tastes like a milk shake.

[mtgman]

where are you getting this gross misinformation?

You're right. I should've said it's not going to kill you if taken properly. I don't think anybody's talking about snorting 50 grams a day for six months straight here. I took it when I was a "minor" and I'm still alive and kickin'. By the way, Ghillieman, Splenda was thought to be a contributing factor to cancer when ingested by rats. It's a dangerous world. For God's sakes, be careful out there.

[snow85]

mtgman--

it was nutrasweet-- saccharin. that's always the take on artificial sweetners.

you may not be talking about snorting it or injecting it directly into your brain-- but the point is that when people come here for advise, 'yes, it's okay' is not necessarily good advice.

you'd be amazed at how many people do NOT take creatine the way that they're supposed to, and how many kids take it improperly and not under the supervision of a medical professional. the win is NOT that important, especially when you can win without it. just because you took it and are 'okay' doesn't mean anyone else will be. do you know for a fact that there is NO damage to your organs? i'll bet you don't. i don't know that i don't have damage from what i took-- very few people have had those tests run and know those things for a fact.

something else to check, ghillie-- make sure that it's not banned by the UIL. if it is, you shouldn't even consider it.



wonderfokinman--

again, just because a body building mag or website tells it's true, doesn't make it so. i can't tell you how many of those mags will take run study and run with it, misinterpreting what the actual study has said. for example:

yes, Cr works, and fulfills its intended purpose

does NOT mean

that Cr as an oral supplement is safe.

this is why this should be done under the eye of a health professional. a football coach does not qualify.

another study that i didn't include, (it was inconclusive as were all the others), was one that states that protein consumption will have the same effect as Cr. guess what? that's extremely hard on your kidneys too, but the study doesn't tell you that.

this is why you need to make informed, educated decisions, and sources seriously need to be considered.

[wonderfokinman]

wonderfokinman--

again, just because a body building mag or website tells it's true, doesn't make it so. i can't tell you how many of those mags will take run study and run with it, misinterpreting what the actual study has said. for example:

yes, Cr works, and fulfills its intended purpose

does NOT mean

that Cr as an oral supplement is safe.

this is why this should be done under the eye of a health professional. a football coach does not qualify.

another study that i didn't include, (it was inconclusive as were all the others), was one that states that protein consumption will have the same effect as Cr. guess what? that's extremely hard on your kidneys too, but the study doesn't tell you that.

this is why you need to make informed, educated decisions, and sources seriously need to be considered.





hmmm thnx for your concern MAM, but I think youll find the forums on bodybuilding.com com are unbiased some of the guys on there have tryed every product on the market and they know what works and what doesnt.They also have more then one thread where the harmful side effects of creatine are discussed,iI suggest you check em out.The reason i told him to go there b/c there are kids are age who know what they are talking about and would answer any questions that he has on dosage or whatever.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/archive/index.php/t-518274.html

HOPE THIS HELPED........

[snow85]

w-

i have checked them out and i know what they say. thanks for the link, but i've been there.

do you believe everything you read? again, it doesn't matter who has tried what, and what persons x, y, or z say about it. these have different effects in everyone, which is why Studies are done on different populations by the medical community.

there's a reason to go to the actual medical community for this information, already stated above. there is no reason that a high school athlete should do this without the aid of the FREE medical care provided them under the school district's insurance policy. he's got it, and should utilize that before he takes the 'win-win' advice of his coach.

and dude-- what's up with the explicit profile?

[wonderfokinman]

i have checked them out and i know what they say. thanks for the link, but i've been there.


That link was for ghilleman but whatever.

do you believe everything you read? again, it doesn't matter who has tried what, and what persons x, y, or z say about it. these have different effects in everyone, which is why Studies are done on different populations by the medical community.


more or less, and yes i look at those studies from time to time but they are completely biased.I believe it was and sandfrog that said," Even drinking to much water can kill you". Thats be proven in medical studies, yet they are still you telling to drink 8 glasses a day. Lets face it most doctor are idiots,not because of their level of education but by their level of ignorance. 101 year old woman was asked what did you do to stay so healthy she said, " I eat right,I exercise,and I stay the hell away from doctors" . Of course things have different effects on every thats why its good to have multiple opinions .



there's a reason to go to the actual medical community for this information, already stated above. there is no reason that a high school athlete should do this without the aid of the FREE medical care provided them under the school district's insurance policy. he's got it, and should utilize that before he takes the 'win-win' advice of his coach.






the school system doesnt know any thing about nutrition, just look at the crap they serve.Most coachs tend to do whats in the best interest of the player.Winning is EVERYTHING.



and dude-- what's up with the explicit profile



im an Explicit guy. In the the future you might wanna ask me dumb questions like What do you like to do? or What are your hobbies? b/c im an honest guy and you might not like waht you hear.

You remind of my mother,the reason why I left home when I was twelve.

Any way dude your eating alot of meat so thats good. How many fruits and vegetables do you eat?
Doesnt really matter which ones you eat and how much you eat is more imporant.Food id much important than any supplements but eating all that food is too much of hassle for me anyways.Try some whole food supplements,with proper nutrition your results would go threw the roof. i reccomend these: SUPER REDS,RUBY REDS,SEA VEG( i like this alot b/c Ive always wanted to eat seaweed but it taste like **** and smells even worst,) I already told one kid to go to freakygrowth.com you might wanna check it out too,they are all natural.I still highly reccomend Gold standard protein its got vitamins and minerals basically everything you need. The guy who made it has credentials up the yin yang it was designed for elite athletes and now hes selling it to the general public. He designed the protein shake formula for over 100 diffrent companies.THis time hes not pulling ne punches b/c he doesnt have to worry about the price.He also use to be the white house nutritionist for reagan i think.Hes works with guys from the nhl and the nfl so hes gotta be doin something right.It tastes great too.

HOPE THIS HELPED.......

[snow85]

so, you believe everything you read and think that medical studies are biased.

guess what-- that's why medical studies are specific:

1. creatine effects in young athletes

2. benefits of creatine

3. dangers of creatine

if you don't choose to read about all studied aspects of a supplement, you're short changing yourself valuable information all the way around.

SF was being a smart aleck with the water poisoning comment, and he knows it.

what that malady ACTUALLY is, is one of two things:

1.hyponatremia-- where your electrolyte balance is thrown off. there are different forms of this depending on the levels of different solutes (sodium, potassium, glucose, etc,) ) in your blood. you can actually 'give' this to a dehydrated person in an effort to rehydrate them. you can google a reputable source and find out what you need to know.

2. hyperhydration-- this is caused from excessive water intake. the deaths have usually, but not always, been associated with drug use. leah betts, for example, drank almost two gallons of water in a 90 minute period. if you drink two gallons of water and other liquids over a 24 hour period, chances of you kicking the bucket aren't as high. it helps if you're not on ecstacy, too. marathoner cynthia lucero died from hyperhydration, but olympian craig barrett recovered. it happens more frequently in endurance athletes than in the general athletic population due to an excessive ingestion of large volumes of fluids. by 'endurance' i mean world championship triathletes, marathoners, cyclists, etc. this is not uncommon, and not as common as you might think, but SF said it however sarcastically, so i know you thought it was crazy true.

doctors are idiots, eh? where did you come up with that? cracker jack box guide to cut-and-ripped? i still fail to see where doctors are ignorant-- please elaborate.



THis time hes not pulling ne punches b/c he doesnt have to worry about the price.He also use to be the white house nutritionist for reagan i think.Hes works with guys from the nhl and the nfl so hes gotta be doin something right.


not pulling punches? haha. just out of curiosity, have you ever been inside the nhl or the nfl?


by the way-- 'gullible' isn't in the dictionary.


Ghillie--

sent to me today just for you, by an ignorant M.D.:


CREATINE: A REVIEW OF EFFICACY AND SAFETY:

Graham AS, Hatton RC.
Genentech, Inc., South San Francisco, CA 94080, USA.
1999 Nov-Dec

OBJECTIVE: To provide an overview of the data on the efficacy and safety of the nutritional supplement creatine. DATA SOURCES: Human studies in English in MEDLINE, Current Contents, BIOSIS, Science Citation Index, and the popular media (including a LEXIS-NEXIS search and information from the World Wide Web and lay media) for 1966 to July 1999 using the search terms creatine, creatine supplement#, creatine monophosphate, and creatine NOT kinase. DATA SYNTHESIS: Creatine use is common among professional athletes. Its use has spread to college athletes, recreational athletes, and even children. Most creatine supplement regimens include a loading dose of 20 to 30 grams divided in 4 equal doses for 5 to 7 days, followed by a 2 gram per day maintenance dose. The increased creatine in the muscle may allow larger stores of phosphocreatine to build, and provide extra energy in the form of adenosine triphosphate. Despite the many clinical trials, high-quality research is lacking. Laboratory investigations of endurance isotonic exercises, strength and endurance during isotonic exercises, isokinetic torque, isometric force, and ergometer performance have yielded roughly an equal number of published studies showing a positive effect or lack of effect. Field studies (i.e., on subjects participating in sports activities) are less impressive than laboratory studies. Performance was more often improved for short-duration, high-intensity activities. Reports have linked creatine to weight gain, cramping, dehydration, diarrhea, and dizziness. Creatine may decrease renal function, but only two case reports of this effect have been published. Creatine appears to be well tolerated in short-term trials. CONCLUSION: While creatine may enhance the performance of high-intensity, short-duration exercise, it is not useful in endurance sports. Because commercially marketed creatine products do not meet the same quality control standards of pharmaceuticals, there is always a concern of impurities or doses higher or lower than those on the labeling. Consumers should balance the quality of information supporting the use of creatine with the known and theoretical risks of using the product, including possible renal dysfunction.

[Ghillieman06]

WOW! Lot of information... anyways I'm not going to take any supplements for the time being other than protein shakes. As for the my diet, I mix fruit with my shakes in the morning after lifting as well as throughout the day. Veggies, I usually eat them whenever possible but not nearly as much as i should. Meat is makes up a bid part also. I eat a lot of carbs like rice, beans, bread, etc...(Q-doba). I'll look into those whole food supps though.Thanks for all the information everyone those links were pretty interesting. Aight gotta bounce!

[wonderfokinman]

2. hyperhydration-- this is caused from excessive water intake. the deaths have usually, but not always, been associated with drug use. leah betts, for example, drank almost two gallons of water in a 90 minute period. if you drink two gallons of water and other liquids over a 24 hour period, chances of you kicking the bucket aren't as high. it helps if you're not on ecstacy, too. marathoner cynthia lucero died from hyperhydration, but olympian craig barrett recovered. it happens more frequently in endurance athletes than in the general athletic population due to an excessive ingestion of large volumes of fluids. by 'endurance' i mean world championship triathletes, marathoners, cyclists, etc. this is not uncommon, and not as common as you might think, but SF said it however sarcastically, so i know you thought it was crazy true.


Are Seals and all Sf guys for that matter not endurance athletes?

The best test to know whether or not your hyperhydrated is to look at the color of your urine if its clear then youve overdone it. Contary to belief most are are hyperhydrated and dont even know, they are on those stupid low carb diets and they are drinking gallons of water lol b/c their doctor told them to.


doctors are idiots, eh? where did you come up with that? cracker jack box guide to cut-and-ripped? i still fail to see where doctors are ignorant-- please elaborate.


I didnt say they all were i said most of em are quacks. The top guys out there are the smartest mfkers on the planet. Why do you think they a special agencys that help people to find a reputable doctor in their area like 1-800-doctors. Its not their fault they are ignorant, The system is all focked up.




not pulling punches? haha. just out of curiosity, have you ever been inside the nhl or the nfl?
[QUOTED]

what are you talking about? do you mean have i ever played for a nfl team? no i havent but i know a couple of players.I have alot of friends playing in NCAA and college guys know a lot more about supplements then most of guys in the NFL.Also my cousin plays for the pittsburgh steelers and he says everyones just trying to stay clean now b/c of the recent ban on creatine and other stuff as well.

[QUOTED]


[QUOTED]
so, you believe everything you read and think that medical studies are biased.

guess what-- that's why medical studies are specific:

1. creatine effects in young athletes

2. benefits of creatine

3. dangers of creatine




by the way-- 'gullible' isn't in the dictionary.


lol quite amusing, now your just attacking me not that you weren't doin it before but at least you were subtle(yea right). if medical studies werent specific then there would be no need for them.

Heres a story for ya, about a month ago i caught a lil cold.I went to the doctor and he gave me some antibiotics of course. 3 days later i came back told em i didn feel any better,so he increased the dosage from 250mg to 500mg. 2 days later i felt the worst ive ever felt ,went back to the doctor he prescibed a diffrent type of antibiotic.... this went on for 2 more weeks then he told me i had a viral illness and that i should stay in bed and drink lost of fluids.The more water i drank the worst i felt so one day i crawled out bed and went to my computer and got online.I researched my symptoms and found out that taking antibiotics when you have a viral illness can make it worst much worst.Also find out that 90% of patients that go to the doctor with flu like symptoms are prescribed antibiotics and 85%of em are misdiagnosed. Long story short i found out that i could reverse the effect of antibiotics with probiotics i did and now i feel better than ive ever felt before.



CREATINE: A REVIEW OF EFFICACY AND SAFETY:

Graham AS, Hatton RC.
Genentech, Inc., South San Francisco, CA 94080, USA.
1999 Nov-Dec

OBJECTIVE: To provide an overview of the data on the efficacy and safety of the nutritional supplement creatine. DATA SOURCES: Human studies in English in MEDLINE, Current Contents, BIOSIS, Science Citation Index, and the popular media (including a LEXIS-NEXIS search and information from the World Wide Web and lay media) for 1966 to July 1999 using the search terms creatine, creatine supplement#, creatine monophosphate, and creatine NOT kinase. [SNIPPED] Consumers should balance the quality of information supporting the use of creatine with the known and theoretical risks of using the product, including possible renal dysfunction.



yea yae yea ive grown bored with this topic so this will be my last post.

HAVE A NICE DAY......

[alphacatone]

This thread has been locked because the content is moving rapidly toward argumentative, rather than informative.