Sleep

[markwjr]

Here's a serious question. How much sleep does the human body really need. This is why I ask. I'm a self-employed electrician, assistant pastor, weight lifter, walker/jogger, father, husband, and am studying to take a licensing exam this fall. I've tried to live on 4-5 hrs. sleep and I don't know if I'm wimping out or trying to do too much. I WANT to accomplish all I set my hands to. Being self-employed my work days are about 10 hrs. long with no breaks up and down ladders and stairs. Give it to me straight doc. Do I need better supplements or renewed determination.

[lelee28]

There is no set amount of sleep that human body needs. The average is like 6-8 hours, but that is really irrelevant when it comes to your body. There are a number of ways of finding out how much sleep your own body requires. However, it sounds like you might not be able to get all of your sleep requirements with your current schedule. The body can go a very long time without any sleep (hellweek) or very little sleep. After a while though it will breakdown. Supplements are not really the answer. I would suggest the best time management possible to get as much sleep as you can. Since you probably still won't be able to get enough sleep, the next best thing that you can do for your body is provide it with good fuel. Try to eat as many fresh fruits and veggies as you can and hold down on the fats especially the trans and saturated fats. A multivitamin, preferably from a whole food source, is the only supplement that I would recommend. A lot of the "engery" products out there are designed for a quick boost, but will really harm your body over the long term (which it seems like you will be experiencing) Good luck, and God bless.

[mtgman]

Mark, while I'm not currently in your situation, I was not too long ago. I am the (proud) father of twin girls. For about 4 months, I was running on 3 1/2 to 5 hours of sleep (and that was broken up into 1 to 2 hour increments, so not 5 hours straight). One thing that helped me (if your work schedule would allow it) was to go workout/run/jog during the middle of the day. I did that instead of taking a lunch break (I could eat at my desk). It woke me up and gave me energy when I started dragging about midday. Again, your work schedule sounds different than mine so I don't know if it would be feasible for you, but it helped me out. If not, another thing that helped was about 6 gallons of coffee a day.

[markwjr]

Great advice. A lot of what you are saying confirms many of my own observations. I wish there was a nutrition book that dealt with the subject of healthy eating as well as Stew Smith's book deals with fitness. Keep it coming. Thanks.

[lelee28]

I wish there was a nutrition book that dealt with the subject of healthy eating


Well there are some pretty good ones out there. Some of them are a little wacky if you know what I mean, but the princples are good.

[Finalday]

If ya'll wouldn't mind late reply to the sleep issue, there is an alturnative that does help. In non-military jobs, grab yourself a 20 min power nap, it takes a little work but done right, you get 20 min sleep and feel a whole lot better. I do this often at work, 2-3 times a week, and wake up ready to go some more with less worn out feeling. It took me a little learning, but I can be asleep in as little as 5 minuets. The nap, done during lunch break, helps a lot,and I can get by with a little less sleep at night.

[Zer0]

If ya'll wouldn't mind late reply to the sleep issue, there is an alturnative that does help. In non-military jobs, grab yourself a 20 min power nap, it takes a little work but done right, you get 20 min sleep and feel a whole lot better. I do this often at work, 2-3 times a week, and wake up ready to go some more with less worn out feeling. It took me a little learning, but I can be asleep in as little as 5 minuets. The nap, done during lunch break, helps a lot,and I can get by with a little less sleep at night.


I wouldn't say not to do that, but wouldn't (if you did keep doing it over time), your body start to need it, and it become a nuisance?

[ForceRecon79]

To a large extent sleep is dependent on a particular person. During Force Recon "Indoc" we went several days with almost no sleep at all. Some guys handeled it better then others. I really had to push myself because I am one of those people who does better with some sleep, then with no sleep at all. I found the best way to deal with it was to have a designated buddy who will wake you up if you nod off. It also helps if you keep moving around or if you keep your mind active by thinking about things and focusing your attention on a given task. Of course this is all coming from a military and training perspective, so it might not be as feasable at home. One thing you can do is train yourself to operate on less sleep. This is what we get trained to do in units like Force Recon, and I am sure the SEALs and other specialized units are the same way. You kind of have to keep up with it though. After I left the Marines I went back to getting 7-8 hours of sleep a day whcih was difficult at first because I was used to getting alot less. The when I started college, I had to learn to operate on less sleep again, because I was up studying all night. Alot of it is just training yourself to do it, and tuffing out the first few weeks which are the hardest.

PS. I recently visited my cousin in L.A. He has four kids under 5 years old, and his wife Jennifer gets maybe 4 hours of sleep a night...and that's on a good night. She said she has been doing it so long that it is pretty easy to do now, your body just kind of adjusts. I hope this helps, it's not much, but it's my experience for what it's worth.

[mtgman]

He has four kids under 5 years old, and his wife Jennifer gets maybe 4 hours of sleep a night...and that's on a good night.

I can attest to that. I have twin daughters and for the first 4 months of their lives my wife and I were going on 3 1/2 to 4 hours per night. Your body does get used to it eventually. I also developed a strong dependency on coffee, can't imagine where that came from.

[pittguy]

Maybe I can offer a little help. Just so you don't think I'm pulling this out of my butt, I'm a neuropsychology major. The optimum amount of sleep is 7 and 1/2 hours. This was found in a medical study that determined that 7 and 1/2 hours is needed to optimize the recovery of neurotransmitters. In another study, they found that you could train yourself to function on 3 hours of sleep a night. This requires a gradual decline as your body needs to adjust slowly to make sleep more efficient, but this is not recommmended as a long term practice because your immune system will suffer dramatically. For people who body build or strength train, it is necessary to get 8 to 10 hours of sleep for the body to recover and eliminate free radicals. As mentioned earlier though the average is 6-8 hours. If you do not get enough sleep all kinds of physical problems can occur. And I'm sure that many guys can attest that during Hell Week they had hallucinations and mental lapses. Some people try to break their sleep up into blocks which I suppose is better than not getting sleep, but studies show breaking sleep up into segments is not as efficient as a single block. And for the young guys in college, like myself, avoid alcohol and caffiene. Obviously caffiene will mess with your sleep cycles, but alcohol, even if you get 8 hours of sleep, messes up your REM cycle and makes sleep basically useless. I hope that helps.

[mtgman]

but alcohol, even if you get 8 hours of sleep, messes up your REM cycle and makes sleep basically useless.

Wow, in that case, I had no sleep in four years of college.

[snow85]

Wow, in that case, I no sleep in four years of college.


haha, no sh*t, right? no, seriously.... no sh*t. man, it took a lot of discipline to not fall asleep at night. maybe i am nsw material after all!

the kid is right. an REM cycle is three hours long. studies say that for optimum performance, you need at least one of those per night, but most people get two. waking up in the middle of one is worse than not having one at all.

different age groups need different amounts of sleep. high school and college students, students specifically, need the most sleep, and the rest of us need less. [hence, everyone who had grandparents who got up at 4am.]

somewhere, (and i don't remember where), it's written that it takes your body a full three hours to 'wake up' once you get up in the morning. of course, if you're hungover, this takes longer.

[haksaw]

an REM cycle is three hours long. studies say that for optimum performance, you need at least one of those per night, but most people get two.


Actually people generally go through at least 4 cycles of the sleep process a night. This includes stages 1-4 and REM sleep. The first REM period lasts only a few minutes. Then the REM cycles get longer and longer peaking somewhere between 40 and 60 minutes. This is usually the pattern for young to middle aged adults. Also if you wake up just after REM sleep or in the middle of it your will be able to remember your dreams very well.

Just thought Id put my knowledge to use

[snow85]

REM cycles are usually between 45min and 1hr, in adults. you only NEED one or two.

the average adult gets 4 or 5.

the entire sleep cycle is longer, NREM = 90-100 minutes, with the average adult getting 4-5 Non-REM-REM cycles per night. the point is that you don't have to go through the entire sleep cycle. just ask anyone who's successfully made it through hell week.

[haksaw]

just admit you were wrong and now you are trying to cover your tracks. Its ok to be wrong once in a while :)

[kenny555]

snow doesnt understand what wrong means. you might have to explain it to her. slowly.

[haksaw]

Ive been looking around this site and ive noticed that snow has an answer to everything and 90% of the time its wrong . So Ive decided that she has a sickness where she actually believes she is right

[cfog3291]

LOL, so true dude.

[Payne_3000]

I know that the body has to have about 8 to 9 hours of sleep but you know when you take a nap its only about 3 to 4 hours and when you wake up your rested, but when you go to sleep at night and you wake up in the morning you feel like you didnt get enough sleep, how is that.

Payne

[mtgman]

when you take a nap its only about 3 to 4 hours

A four hour nap?! Do you not have anything else to do Payne?

[Payne_3000]

A four hour nap?! Do you not have anything else to do Payne?


So you telling me you never took a nap atleast 1 or 2 times, maybe not 3,4 hours long, i was over exaggerating a little on that. And to answer your question I really dont take naps, maybe once in 4 months. I always have something to do, I'm always swimming,running or lifting weights.


Payne

[Marvin]

Hello Mark.

The amount of sleep a person needs actually depends on the age and amount of physical and mental activity a person engages to. For example, a child who does not perform any exhausting task and undergoing a period of rapid growth needs 16 to 18 hours of sleep.

The same thing applies to youngsters who are experiencing the biological challenges of puberty. More often than not they require at least 9 hours of sleep every night for that matter.

Adults, on the other hand, requires 7 to 8 hours of sleep a day but changes if one engages to a vigorous activity which requires too much physical strength. From this figures alone, we can see that sleep necessity varies from person to person.

Moreover, older individuals in their 60s above usually sleep a bit shorter due to some physical factors. One study even shows, as the body grows older, the amount of melatonin (chemical, which induces sleep) a body produces diminish and becomes irregular.

[Spartan]

My view on sleep hasd always been this:

Try and get 8 hours of sleep in one block if it's in youre power to do so. If you can't...well you can't Do what you have to do and tough it out. JUst make sure when ever you can sleep, that you do so. I do not beelive you can "catch up" but some times it's a bit of a mental thing. If you have the chance I concider 9 hours to be sleeping in. 10 hours to be alot of sleep, 11 hours is to much, and 12 and up, your sick.

Sleeping is an issue I had to put behind my self when I started doing ALERT Search and Rescue because we only got about 6 hours and night, and 7 if we tried hard. On the week ends we could get 9-10 if we tried as well, so it was livable. But it's was a lesson in it's self. and I'm glad I learnmed it outside of BUDS first.

[Marvin]

Hello everyone,

Have checked out our sleep I.Q. quiz? This is to test, how much you know about sleep. Check it yourself. All you have to do is spend 5 minutes.

Who is going to get 10 out of 10? Let me know. I got 8 out of 10.

http://www.sleepdisordersguide.com/sleep-iq-test.html

Marvin

[Kobra22]

Let me know. I got 8 out of 10.


Nice find. I got 7 out of 10. I had no clue sleep was so complicated.

[immortality]

Sleep is for women and children........

[Kobra22]

Sleep is for women and children........

ROFL, I got a good laugh outta that. Thanks.

[Battletoad]

Sleep is for women and children........

A-hoo-f***in-yah!!

[KWJams]

Operating on less sleep --- is operating on a sleep deficit.

Like Pittman said. it may be OK for a short term, but you start to compromise your overall well being.

I am a 53 year old former Marine Infantryman and a Truck driver for the past 27 years and have missed a lot of sleep. I can run hard all week on 3-5 hours of sleep per day if needed, but by the 6th day I am a road hazard.
The 6th day is all about recovery time and the 7th day is just getting psyched to do it again.

A few things that I found that works when I have to pull a rabbit out the hat and get by with a minimum amount of sleep is:

1. Sleep for an hour or so before sunup. It is easier to stay awake once the sun is up.

2. Apples have a natural stay awake ingredient and one will last an hour or more.

3. Bee pollen works as a natural stimulant and does not give you the jitters like caffeine or make you crash and burn when you do slow down.

[Thebatchelor]

I've see a couple of people saying 6-8 hours is it possible and healthy to train myself for 6 hours of sleep for a long period?

[SeaSpectre]

You body DOES require some level of sleep to survive. Anyone who has been to SERE will know how badly sleep deprivation can hurt your health and mental state. I generally don't get a lot of sleep during the work week, however I try to get some good shut eye and "catch up" on a day off----generally Sunday. Works for me.



Spectre out

[SR1077]

Lol at your comment.

I mostly get about 6 hours of sleep & i'm in lifting conditioning for football in the summer
and i work out a few times a week at the YMCA.
I blame the fact that I have a nagging girlfriend for my loss of sleep.

[SRMoore]

so i've read through this chat and its all been very helpful for training in general. But what about training for hell week and SERE school? Is there some kind of training of your sleep schedule that can be done and if so how long before said events should it be initiated?

[dive doc]

Hey guys,

ive posted on this before but i will just add a couple of more comments here.

One of the reasons your alertness peaks during the day or why its easier (and better) to grab a "nap" before sunrise is due to the bodys circadian rhythm or "bodyclock". Sunlight is the strongest factor in entraining the circadian rhythm and resetting it to a 24 hr day (however it is not the only factor). It also influences the levels of cortisol (responsible for making you more alert in the morning) and melatonin (responsible for making you more drowsy at night time). This is one of the reasons shift workers why shift workers can often have difficulty sleeping during the day even though they are tired.

If you cannot get your full quota of sleep at night it can be a BIG help if you manage to grab a power nap during the day (less than 40 mins, longer than this and you run the risk of drifting into deep sleep and wake feeling worse than you were when you fell asleep). It is your total sleep time during a day that accumulates rather than just your sleep at night time. A REM cycle is ~90 mins long as has been previously mentioned. For this reason it is more efficient to try and set your sleeping pattern to a 4.5 hr, 6 hr, 7.5 hr pattern as this will allow the bodyclock to function in tandem. If you wake in the morning during the REM cycle it is very likely that you are going to feel lousy for a few hours following that as it takes that long for the body to readjust. If you wake close to stage 1/stage 2 sleep after a REM cycle, you are that much closer to the bodys natural physiologic waking state and much more likely to wake feeling refreshed. If you can set your alarm to wake you within these parameters it is possible over a period of time for your body to "wake itself" at these natural time cues giving you the best chance of waking feeling as refreshed as possible.

DD

[danieldavey]

Here in the UK, they have an experiment which will let you have around 5 hrs. sleep a night, though plit periods. You wake up then go back to sleep, contiually thoughout the night. Newsreaders use it for there morning 'shifts'. It works and I have tried it. It leaves feeling more refreashed. I also recomend having coffee after you wake up. It gives you that extra boost.

[crsmith]

I'm not a sleep Dr., but continue your exercise, find some down time, and watch your eating habits. It will be important to make sure you don't start eating large amounts of fast or processed foods. I am also a big proponent for fish oil with large amounts of DHA & EPA.

Chris

[snow85]

from personal experience, i second the nap theory.

in college, a coach told me that the 20min nap was best, for the REM reasons listed above. so.... since i was routinely staying up until 3, getting up at 6, and then spending several hours at practice every day, i decided to give it a shot.

it was hard to make myself fall asleep during the day, but once i got the hang of it, the 20 minute nap in the afternoon saved my hide in college.

just a word of advice about nighttime sleep: i had a good friend who, as an adult, worked a full-time job, went to school, was a single-parent, and routinely got 4 hours of sleep/night for years on end. he got "annual" bronchitis, fell asleep one day, and woke up several months later in the hospital, paralyzed. he had gone to sleep and fallen into a coma. doctors could not figure out what was wrong with him, so they finally consulted the mayo clinic. mayo told him that his child had brought something home from school, that it usually only affected children, but since his system was so run down, it attacked his body and he couldn't fight it off. after months of excruciating rehab, he was fine, but they told him that had he slept more, this probably wouldn't have happened. a very extreme and rare case, but don't neglect your sleep. you need it.

younger people, high schoolers and college aged kids, need more sleep than adults, but you DO need your sleep.

[Courtenay]

I agree with the "power-nap" crowd. 15 minutes refreshes you and makes you feel better. I try to grab one nearly every day. It improves my overall mood, and I feel sharper and more able to handle stress. I do also strive to at least get 6 hours a night of unbroken sleep.

I think it is foolish to kid ourselves and think that we can function for long periods of time on little sleep. Everyone has times where they are busy and cannot get the sleep they need, but it isn't wise for anyone to push themselves without sufficient sleep.

When a person does not allow enough time for sleep, the health consequences can be harmful. Researchers warn that sleep deprivation can seriously diminish the immune system. It can also decrease body temperature, lower the release of growth hormone, and even cause an increase in heart rate and blood pressure. Also, sleep deprivation has a very negative impact on cognitive abilities, creativity, and alertness. It has been shown to adversely affect language skills, decision-making, and memory.

Researchers say there is no doubt there is an association between sleep loss and obesity and diabetes. A lack of sufficient sleep leads to increased appetite and late-night snacking and to decreased physical activity.

One hormone, ghrelin, which triggers appetite in humans, was found at higher levels in people who regularly underslept. Another hormone, leptin, which lets the body know when it is full and should stop eating, was found at much lower levels in people who did not get enough sleep.

Six hours is what I normally get. But, I have read that even six hours per night really isn't enough for most people to maintain optimum health. Is it really worth what we do to our bodies to cram more activity into each day?

[snow85]

court, when do you take this nap? is it during the working day, or in the afternoon when you get home, before you start the "2nd shift?"

[Courtenay]

Depends on my schedule. We also have a lounge with big comfy chairs. A lot of people end up spending many hours at work.....and end up grabbing naps in the lounge.